An analysis of open carry problems

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I have no clue as to if they have a legal binding responsibility to respond.

No lawyer here, either, but my understanding is that this is a kind of yes, and no thing.

According to the results of various court cases (and here, you'll have to do your own research, sorry) my understanding that the Police Dept (the government) has a legal responsibility to protect the public, in general, but not you, the individual, specifically. In a nutshell, if you call the cops and nobody responds, you might have a case against the police dept., you might not.

If some cops show up, do nothing then leave, you don't have a case against the polict dept. You might have a case against the individual officers. Of course every case is different, details matter, and I'm not a lawyer.

If I'm mistaken, please do correct me.
 
Reloadron said:
It also works this way. Let's say a dispatcher applies your line of questioning and let's say it goes exactly as you covered.

D: What is the person doing with the gun?

C: He's ... he's .. he has this BIG GUN in a BLACK holster on his belt!!!!!

D: Okay, but is he doing anything illegal with the gun, like waving it around or pointing at people?

C: Well, no, not yet. But, but ... it's a GUN! Please send the SWAT team as quick as you can!

D: M'am, it's legal to carry a gun in this state. Unless he's doing something illegal, we have no reason to waste our officers' time investigating. Have a nice day.
Now we all know that all 911 calls are recorded. Let's say the man with a gun is out to settle a score with another neighbor. Following the phone call by the good Samaritan the man with a gun draws that gun and blows away a neighbor.
To follow your example, suppose when the call is made the guy with the gun isn't doing anything, he just has a gun in a holster on his belt. So Officer Friendly responds, chats the guy up, the guy has a permit and doesn't make any bones about showing the officer the permit. The guy is perfectly legal and hasn't done anything wrong, so Officer Friendly terminates the "interview" and departs the scene.

Fifteen minutes later the guy uses the same gun to blow away his neighbor.

Exactly what was accomplished by dispatching an officer to investigate an incident of [at the moment] legal activity?
 

Reloadron

New member
Aguila_Blanca:
Exactly what was accomplished by dispatching an officer to investigate an incident of [at the moment] legal activity?

Exactly nothing was accomplished but the police department won't come under the same scrutiny as if they did nothing.

This is really pretty simple in that here in Ohio I have a right to open carry and there is no permit required. Any citizen who can legally purchase a gun can openly carry a gun. It's a right I choose not to exercise. I choose not to exercise that right to open carry based on the reasons I mentioned. I am not looking to argue the point and it's nice to know that in my state of residence the right exist. I also have a right to bay at the moon but choose not to exercise that right. Simply because the US Constitution or a State Law guarantees me a right does not mean I have some need to exercise that right. Maybe your location of CONUS allows open carry and maybe not. if it does then if you choose have at it. The Continental US is a pretty large area but if it's a right in your one of 48 then by all means have at it.

Ron
 
Reloadron said:
Exactly nothing was accomplished but the police department won't come under the same scrutiny as if they did nothing.

Precisely. And that's what's wrong with the current status quo. Police departments won't send officers to investigate other reports of "persons engaging in apparently lawful activity," but they always send officers to investigate man with a gun reports -- usually without even asking if the man with a gun is doing anything threatening with the aforementioned gun. I recognize that this is status quo probably everywhere in the country. That doesn't make it right. We can't change it overnight -- we may never be able to change it -- but I respectfully submit that we should NOT -- ever -- discuss it as though it's the way things ought to be. Because it is NOT the way things ought to be.
 

Reloadron

New member
I can certainly agree with that. I also figure that you are correct in that at 68 years old I don't expect to see change before I am gone. No, not the way it ought to be but the way it is.

Ron
 

briandg

New member
I'm rather surprised at the number of people who are saying that the bystander who sees an armed man at the mall should just put on his big girl panties and shut up, that nobody in the world has any reason to be bothered, frightened, worried, etc, if they see a person with a weapon, regardless of the circumstances, whether it's a crazy looking guy in rags, or a guy who is obviously on his way to deer camp.

Let's reframe that just a bit. In san francisco, it is legal to be naked in public. In any part of the city, a bus, a park, even outside of an elementary school, in any public space, people can choose to bare their skin. We're not talking about just mowing your lawn, on your own property, naked, a person can legally go anywhere, on any public land, strip down, and throw everything they have out for the public.

I can't take that. If I visited the bridge and ran into a roaming band of seventy year old men with rainbow ribbons wrapped around their wrinklies, it would cause me palpitations, maybe even cause such a blood pressure spike that I'd hit the ground. If I saw a naked woman wearing nothing but a pair of pasties with her phone number on them it would be really hard for this old prude to avoid serious discomfiture. In this one, and only one major city, people have the right to do that, and I have no right to visit a park without seeing naked ninety year old women doing cheer exercises.

https://www.kqed.org/news/11613510/the-history-of-nudity-in-san-francisco-uncovered

I apparently have no right to be free of the mechanical quake boxes that drive past my house at least four times a day, nor do I have the right to not listen to the foul screaming coming from the car in the next lane.

there are plenty of people with PTSD or phobias, or for that matter, just a strong fear or dislike of firearms who should have a right to go to a park without seeing an armed vigilante in combat gear providing his own private security service.

No. The second amendment does not say anything about having the right to intimidate other members of the public. That 'right' does not exist. many people want to open carry for only that reason.

I have one important point to make. Brandishing a weapon occurs when a person brings undue attention to it, such as by handling it in a suggestive way. even giving someone a hard stare and touching it is technically brandishment.

While states pass laws allowing open carry, private organizations are going to increase efforts to ban them on their premises, cities will ban them in certain sections. Laws will spring up around the country banning the 'flaunting' of a weapon. A step down from brandishing it, but there will be another level added to the brandishment ordinances that involves less overt ways of showing the public that one is a badass with a gun, and implying danger without threatening danger.

For every right we have, or believe that we have as gun owners, we have a thousand times as many responsibilities.

For every right that we have or assume that we have, every member of the public has many rights that run contrary to ours, and our rights are not always more important than the other guy's rights. It's hard for people to accept that, but it's a fact. No matter what I believe, it's legal to walk naked down the street, or walk down the street carrying a battle rifle. I would, however, be a real jerk to do so under many circumstances.
 
briandg said:
I have one important point to make. Brandishing a weapon occurs when a person brings undue attention to it, such as by handling it in a suggestive way. even giving someone a hard stare and touching it is technically brandishment.
Technically, "brandishing" is what the laws in the jurisdiction say brandishing is ... nothing less, nothing more. And that's not the same everywhere in the U.S. To me, personally, "brandishing" means (or should mean) holding the thing (gun, knife, club, whatever) in your hand and waving it around in a threatening manner. Some jurisdictions define "brandishing" such that simply placing a hand on the grip of a holstered firearm is "brandishing." As far as I have been able to determine, my state doesn't have any statutory definition of "brandishing."

When speaking of the law, it's dangerous to generalize.
 

FireForged

New member
The idea that all manner of criminals are going to magically be aware of every OC citizen is just silly. Maybe they see you and maybe they don't.. and if they don't and only become aware of the OCer after overt action has commenced, they are left with very few options. Flee, Fight or Surrender is about the most plausible options. Most events have a before, during and after.. its not always going to be "before" overt action that the badguy first becomes aware of the OC citizen. Crime is not always so easily aborted, especially if the crime is driven by addiction, mental illness, gang influences or other perceived dire needs.

If proponents of OC want to think that criminals will flee at the sight of their holstered weapon, they are welcome to feel that way. I am no expert in anything but I have had near 30 years of experience dealing with violent predatory criminals and I am not inclined to believe that the armed criminal who sets out purposefully to commit violent crime is likely going to respond to a perceived threat by passive means. nah.. I don't buy it and wouldn't bet on it.

Any benefit that OC can offer is likely contingent upon exactly when the criminal becomes aware of the OCer ( if at all). I see the odds as being against it being a benefit but will concede that it can in some very narrow circumstance, be a deterrent.

There are many good reasons why many professionals and others with substantial experience refrain from OCing in public. Each of us have to simply choose a mode of carry based on what we consider important. Speaking just for myself, I consider OC to work against my methodology and general beliefs about keeping myself safe in public spaces.

Take it for what its worth but you don't see people writing articles about the perils of concealed carry.

I have lived in a Open Carry State all my life and have seen no more than half a dozen OCers in all that time.

No matter what mode of carry you happen to choose, good luck to you and safe travels
 
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shurshot

New member
I prefer the element of surprise and tactical advantage if I ever need to draw my weapon. I also have seen countless people walking around my state ( Maine), open carrying, that could EASILY have been subdued and disarmed, had a desperate and dangerous man possessed the inclination to due so. Out of sight, out of mind. Walk softly and carry that big stick... concealed. Egos and guns don't mix well.
 

tony pasley

New member
All depends on where you live and what you do. I retired 2 years ago so I don't spend any more time in cities than I have to. I spend most of my time on the farm or riding in National Forest land. The rare times I have to go to the city I do conceal so nobody get their panties in a knot wand wets themselves over the sight of a gun. My pistol is there to protect me and my horses from vermin, no legged( rattlers and copperheads) 4 legged( feral dos, coyotes, cats) and two legged.
 

ManyMag

New member
I couldn't care less about concealment or the lack thereof so if you conceal for tactical reasons, cool.
If you conceal because you aren't mentally prepared for a confrontation you should leave it at home.
All that really matters is what's between your ears and in your heart.
A little muscle memory can't hurt either.
 

FireForged

New member
I couldn't care less about concealment or the lack thereof

so are you simply carrying a gun without any consideration or thoughtful direction regarding the mission to keep yourself safe?



I can accept that some people consider OC a better tactic and others may consider CC a better tactic but to say that you don't care either way.. seems rather deficient. We are not talking about pizza toppings, we are talking about mode of carrying a weapon.
 

Dano4734

New member
It really depends on the state like I said my state requires concealed carry but I would submit if open carry was legal 7 out of 10 people who don’t live in the country like myself would be calling the police about a guy carrying a gun and I don’t want to have to keep explaining to the police how I am legally allowed to own and carry it. Now a state like Alaska nobody cares open or concealed as everyone has a firearm
 

5whiskey

New member
One aspect I think many here may be overlooking...your reality and experience is not the same as mine. My experience is unique, as is yours. I live in the county that I grew up in. I have seen some fairly drastic changes the past 30ish years I actually remember. While originally a staunch agriculture community, my county is adjacent to Raleigh, NC. It is a growing area. My county has doubled in population in the past 20 years. All that said, there is still a thriving farm community in parts of the county. I could go nearly anywhere in this county OCing without fear of having the police called on me. There are a lot of transplants that may have culture shock their first year or so here, but they learn quickly.

The point... choosing not to OC for fear of constant police contact due to calls of ignorant, yet well meaning, citizens doesn't enter many peoples thought process. Just because it may happen in your area, doenst mean it will happen in mine. I choose to CC the majority of the time because I personally believe it is a tactical advantage. I also dress in the predominant local attire for the same reason. That aside, I do not bat an eye at OCing to the local hardware store running a quick errend. No one else does either.

And I agree with the conclusion of the article... CC is better than OC. I do not agree that the reasoning that the author uses to come to this conclusion is significant enough to bear much relevance to the conversation. If there were a magic way to know for sure, I would wager that many more violent crimes are prevented by the knowledge that the potential victim has a weapon, than violent crimes that are committed for the purpose of obtaining the victims weapon. This would be an informed wager based on experience.
 

TXAZ

New member
... ...your reality and experience is not the same as mine. My experience is unique, as is yours. ...

BINGO!


I ride a train to the office in the West End of downtown Dallas. OC would be a very bad idea with the many 'characters' that hang out there.
 

Wag

New member
5whiskey nails it. The predominant culture in your area will determine whether or not open carry is acceptable. In my state, it's legal, but definitely not acceptable everywhere you go. Last time I open carried was to take a load of stuff to the dump. Aside from that, Concealed is the only acceptable way to carry.

Until a very few years ago, you could open carry in California (not loaded, though) but some people decided to make an issue out of it and carry wherever they wanted. Shortly after, even that very limited open carry privilege was legislated out of existence. Thanks to people who felt that exercising their "rights" was preferable to...

...well, anything else. People who just wanted to be on YouTube for some reason.

What's the saying? Discretion is the better part of valor?

--Wag--
 

rwilson452

New member
In PA open carry is legal and doesn't require a license. There is no brandishing law. However, If you start pointing it at people you may be charged with aggravated assault.

I live in small town America, less than 2000 people. Nobody cares. I have been approached in a big box store in a nearby town and ask what I was carrying. At the time it was an XD in 45ACP with a CTC laser grip. I have sat in the local eatery across from the town admin. building with the CLEO at a nearby table. we exchange greetings.

I have been approached once by a young "lady" asking me why i carry that THING. I told her years ago before she was born i took an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution and I include every one living under it. She hung her head down and quietly said, " Thank you for your service." I presume she was a student at the local university. We get a lot of students from nearby NYS.
 

gwpercle

New member
Living in Louisiana , open carry has always been legal , going on 70 years now and I've never had any problems. A local Cafe even gives you a 10% discount for packing heat !

Problems....what problems...we don't have no stinking problems !
Come to Louisiana and open carry all you want....makes the bad guys nervous , the last thing they want to tangle with is a bunch of armed good guys and gals .
Gary
 

FireForged

New member
70 years now and I've never had any problems

How many violent predatory criminals ( on the prowl) have you encountered in that time. If you don't know, it would be hard to attribute OC as any sort of factor in your good fortunes
 
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