After jurors criticize guns, man accused of gun crime wants judge to decide case

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Lohman446

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UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES he believed existed

The danger here is that it is not the circumstances the defendant claimed existed and his actions but the circumstances that a "reasonable person" would believe to have existed.

And the defendant, in attempting a positive claim of self defense, is going to have his standing as a "reasonable person" questioned. Part of the questioning is going to be, I expect, the six loaded magazines he had with him.

On an aside: what circumstance does a single civilian envision that is going to require the use of lethal force, require 120 rounds, and allow said reasonable individual to escape alive? I figure if I fire 20-30 rounds (or 15 when carrying a revolver) and have not managed to escape or ended the threat I am out of luck.
 

Koda94

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What I see if he gets convicted without a fair trial is a clear message that anyone who questions the BLM/dont shoot movement is subject to assault and/or criminal conviction.

Oregon is a stand your ground state, he had no legal obligation to run. He has a right to be there, the protestors who i bet did not get a permit to protest would not have in that capacity without one.

Yes, his worlk is controversial by nature but I still dont see how you guys think hes at fault when he is clearly walking backwards removing himself from the situation. He presented his gun to the mob that was flanking him, not the crowds.
 

Koda94

New member
And the defendant, in attempting a positive claim of self defense, is going to have his standing as a "reasonable person" questioned. Part of the questioning is going to be, I expect, the six loaded magazines he had with him.

On an aside: what circumstance does a single civilian envision that is going to require the use of lethal force, require 120 rounds, and allow said reasonable individual to escape alive? I figure if I fire 20-30 rounds (or 15 when carrying a revolver) and have not managed to escape or ended the threat I am out of luck.

How about a BLM protest?

How many rounds would anyone here carry if they had to cover a BLM protest for their job? Even if you werent there to question them....
 

zincwarrior

New member
On an aside: what circumstance does a single civilian envision that is going to require the use of lethal force, require 120 rounds, and allow said reasonable individual to escape alive? I figure if I fire 20-30 rounds (or 15 when carrying a revolver) and have not managed to escape or ended the threat I am out of luck.

Hey some people take that Zombie apocalypse thing seriously I guess. :)

How does one carry that many mags in civilian clothing without a shoot me first vest or similar?

Yes thats going to look to neutral third parties like screaming bad intent, or he's a nutjob. Plus not calling the police and just staying there thats...wow.

Oregon is a stand your ground state, he had no legal obligation to run. He has a right to be there, the protestors who i bet did not get a permit to protest would not have in that capacity without one.

Stand your ground just means you have no duty to retreat. It doesn't change the standards related to justifying self defense. Being shouted at by marchers doesn't work.

How many rounds would anyone here carry if they had to cover a BLM protest for their job? Even if you werent there to question them....
If your intent is to shoot up a march thats multiple capital murder.
 

Koda94

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Folks he didnt call the police because the roit police were already on the scene and threw him to the ground...
 

Glenn E. Meyer

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Stand your ground is not a get out of jail ticket if you don't have a provable lethal threat and you are deploying a gun.

Nor is announcing that you are in fear of your life. Some guy here did that when he clearly provoked a fight and stood his ground, proclaiming he was in fear of his life. Then he shot - and now he's off to the orange jump suit fashion show.

If you think that you will shoot 120 or so people successfully with all those mags, you are delusional about gun usage.
 

zincwarrior

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Folks he didnt call the police because the roit police were already on the scene and threw him to the ground...
Sure he could argue that. Good luck.

If they were already on scene then no jury in the world is gong to buy self defense, and rightly so.

"I was in fear for my life"
"what about the ten cops standing next to you?"
"er.."
 

Koda94

New member
But he wasnt standing his ground, he was leaving the scene...


(Ok, i agree with you about the 129rds... )
 

KyJim

New member
Going back to what Koda94 wrote:

you are correct, the gist of the jury pool was that virtually every one of them was biased against carrying a gun for self defense.

out of 30 potential jurors 10 right away said its not smart to carry a gun in public, 9 claimed to be "generally opposed to firearms" , 2 hunters who own guns expressed bias against carrying a gun for self defense, a "few" more claimed they were against using a gun to defend themselves in their home and one person claimed he was once attacked and robbed by 5 bad guys and chose not to fight back and be a pacifist.

Somewhere in there I lost count, Id say 25 easy..
These are not necessarily different people. The 10 who said it was not smart to carry in public probably included the 9 who were generally opposed to firearms; the same with those "few" against using guns for defense. I feel very sure there were not 25 different persons making all these statements. Could he have gotten a fair jury? I don't know.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

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What defines a fair jury? Only folks who agree with your interpretation of something? I get that sense.

They have to state that they will follow the law as presented to them.

Each lawyer tries to get a sympathetic jury but 'fairness' is ill-defined if you mean agreement with you.

If you were on trial for a racist hate crime - would you think it unfair that jurors who exposed equal rights and nondiscrimination were on the jury?
 

KyJim

New member
What defines a fair jury? Only folks who agree with your interpretation of something? I get that sense.
No, I don't think that at all. I just meant that I wasn't there, I didn't see the jurors, I didn't hear their answers. Not a one of us here can say, with the limited information we have, whether he could have gotten a fair jury. I tend to think he would but that is still an opinion based on skimpy facts.
 

Koda94

New member
A fair jury are ones that are not basing their opinion on if people should carry guns, that he carried one, or even had hundreds or rounds.
The prosecutor is making it about the gun.

The case is about what caused him to draw his gun, and if he was justified in doing so.
 

zincwarrior

New member
The fact he was carrying 120 rounds is definitely evidence that will be admissible at trial unless the police somehow performed a bad search-highly highly unlikely in this case.
 

Lohman446

New member
A fair jury are ones that are not basing their opinion on if people should carry guns, that he carried one, or even had hundreds or rounds.
The prosecutor is making it about the gun.

The case is about what caused him to draw his gun, and if he was justified in doing so.

Again the standard is not what the individual claiming defense thought but what a REASONABLE person in a similar circumstance would think. The defense is going to attempt to paint the defendant as a reasonable person whose judgments can be relied on. The prosecutor is going to assert the defendant is not a reasonable person and the jurors must consider their expectations of a reasonable person. 120 rounds of ammunition loaded in magazines. I believe strongly in the right to self defense. I believe in the right to self defense through the use of a firearm. I would need some explanation as to why a reasonable person would be carrying 120 rounds of ammunition loaded in magazines before I would simply accept that the person doing so is reasonable.

My feelings, which are based on very limited information, is he went knowing very well there were going to be problems and he found them. He is not an officer - he had every opportunity to not go.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
They have to state that they will follow the law as presented to them.
That's correct. It's technically not the legal requirement, but judges and lawyers like to pretend it is. This is what jury nullification is all about.

Several years ago I was called for jury duty. I had been called twice before. Both previous times, voir dire was conducted individually and I wasn't selected for an actual trial. My state's jury system is "one day or one trial," so both times I went home at the end of the one day and my duty was done for the next 'X' years.

The last time, voir dire was initially conducted as a group. One of the questions asked of the group was, "If anyone would have a problem applying the law as explained to you by the judge, raise your hand." We were under oath, so I raised my hand.

Boy Howdy! What a circus! After one or two follow-up questions, they shooed all the other prospective jurors out of the courtroom and the attorneys for both sides of the case (it was a civil case, not criminal) ganged up on me about how I HAD to follow the judge's instructions on the law. I know that's not correct, and I told them so.

So they stuck me in a little anteroom for about half an hour. I periodically heard voices from the courtroom. Finally, they brought me back in to face a woman judge they had dredged up from somewhere, and she proceeded to harangue me about how I had to follow a judge's explanation of the law. And I explained to her that John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, had said just the opposite, and that what he said had never been reversed. The judge told me that my understanding of history was flawed and that I should go home and do some research. With that, I was discharged.

So I went home, and I looked up John Jay's very well-known instruction to the jury in the case of Georgia v. Brailsford. What he said was:

John Jay said:
It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision.

This was in 1794. I haven't looked it up recently, but there was a subsequent case before the Supreme Court in which (as I understand it) the SCOTUS affirmed the principle that juries may, in fact, judge the law as well as the facts of the case, but that judges aren't required to tell jurors that they have that right. As my incident demonstrated clearly, neither attorneys nor judges really want people on juries who can think. I knew this going in -- if I hadn't been under oath, I would not have raised my hand.

I should perhaps note that I wrote to the judge who sent me home to "do my homework," citing Georgia v. Brailsford as the basis for my belief that jurors are empowered to judge the law as well as the facts. She didn't have the courtesy to even acknowledge my letter.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
As I've pointed out before, jury nullification is merely the natural consequence of the rule against double jeopardy. Since the prosecution can't appeal a jury verdict of acquittal, a jury is de facto free to ignore the facts and law and acquit a clearly guilty defendant if the jury has concluded that it would be unjust to convict notwithstanding the facts and law -- such as when white juries in the post-reconstruction South might have been disinclined to convict a white man of a crime against a black man.
 

KyJim

New member
The earliest, most famous case on this continent dealing with jury nullification with which I am familiar is that of John Peter Zenger. He was charged with criminal libel/sedition and was undoubtedly guilty under the law as it existed in the 1730s. His lawyers presented truth as a defense, even though it was not a legal defense. The jury acquitted him and it has been hailed as a landmark case for freedom of the press.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
And thus we see how jury nullification can cut both ways. The jury is sometimes called the conscience of the community.
 
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