Accidental Shooting

[g.willikers]

Thinking back on all the used guns I've bought, mostly without issue, maybe it hasn't been such a good idea.
At least with a new one, there's less chance of malfunction.
And someone to fix or replace it if there is.
And someone to sue if it all goes bad.
Something to ponder, especially if there's not a huge price difference.
Won't apply to out of production models, though.
Just a thought or two.

 

[Jim Watson]

Jim, Creedmore Sports is a great shop.

187 miles.
In specialized areas, I have the guy who built and modified my 1911s. Largely retired, but if I need somebody to tell me what is wrong with a 1911, he will sure do it.

Yes, there are "race slick" shops out there doing things that should not be done. It happens in ARs, bolts guns and shotguns too, but it seems most prevalent in pistols.

Seems like people are fabricating ARs, especially the severe mutants like "pistols," PCCs, SBRs, and odd calibers, just by throwing parts together. When the gun fails, they just change some parts, often promiscuously, at most based on a youtube or gunboard. I haven't seen anything dangerous... yet.

 

[MarkCO]

Jim, I have been exploring the PCC in depth, and I have already seen some pretty bad things happen.

Like .308s. there are all sorts of things having the do with headspace, timing, etc and I have seen a few pretty bad blow-outs...no-one hurt yet. At SHOT, one of the prominent manufacturers said to me "someone is going to blow themselves up." and it would not surprise me.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Several years ago I bought a pre-owned Para-Ordnance double stack with the intention of using it for local competitions. It was represented to me as having never been shot -- bought, fondled, put on the shelf, and then put up for sale when the original owner's interests changed.

It looked beautiful. However, it wouldn't work. I couldn't get through a magazine without at least one malfunction and, although I'm not s stranger to the inner workings of the 1911, I couldn't figure out what was wrong. I finally arranged to have Para's warranty facility look it over. The report I got back was that none of the internal fire control parts were Para-Ordnance parts. To Para's everlasting credit (not that it matters, since they no longer exist), they authorized the shop to do whatever was needed to fix it, so it came back with all new fire control parts, plus a factory trigger tune-up to a nice, crisp 3-1/2 pounds.

Unfortunately, we really can't trust anyone these days. And sometimes even a more or less qualified 'smith can't tell what's been done to a firearm by previous shoemakers. I wouldn't have been able to determine that the parts weren't factory Para. More to the point, it wasn't my first Para and I was never able to figure out why anybody would have replaced all those parts.

 

[g.willikers]

It would only seem prudent to keep the original stock parts and put them all back before selling any gun.
Whittle away to yer heart's content on whatever parts so desired, but don't sell the gun that way.
That would be the safe and honorable thing.

 

[MarkCO]

It would only seem prudent to keep the original stock parts and put them all back before selling any gun.
Whittle away to yer heart's content on whatever parts so desired, but don't sell the gun that way.
That would be the safe and honorable thing.

That is my practice.

 

[Model12Win]

Glad she didn't die! Very bad tragedy. I'm not a fan of kitchen gunsmithing when it comes to anything that has to do with the firing mechanism.

 

[TunnelRat]

It would only seem prudent to keep the original stock parts and put them all back before selling any gun.
Whittle away to yer heart's content on whatever parts so desired, but don't sell the gun that way.
That would be the safe and honorable thing.

This is what I do. Sometimes I'll leave the newer parts in if I think it adds to the value of the firearm (match kits, etc.) but then I include the original parts in a marked bag and make sure to let the buyer know what was changed.

 

[Oysterboy]

I don't see the gun as modified, I see it butchered.

Glad you're ok Cameron.

 

[bedbugbilly]

One of the best threads I've ever seen on here and it should be viewed by all - in fact, it ought to be a sticky.


The situation could have been much worse in the end and I'm glad they were able to save her leg (and life).

I'm going to get flamed for this I know but I don't really give a rat's #@$.

Every day on every forum imaginable, we read posts about modifications being made. In the end that's up to the individual and the owner of the firearm and there is a vast number of "after market tune up parts" available. And I guess that is fine as well. Personally, I've never modified any of my firearms that I've owned over the last 55 years as I've never felt the need - but that's me - you may be different. BUT . . . for those who are stating that "original parts" should be retained and put back in the gun before you sell it are kind of missing the point. THE POINT? If you aren''t skilled and knowledgeable in what you are doing, then don't do it. Too many people own Dremel tools and do backyard tree gunsmithing. Yes . . . you can put the original parts back in when you sell it . . . BUT what about in between the time you do your alterations and when you put the original parts back in? Over modification and over polishing, etc. - coupled with very little understanding of how all the parts interwork can make not only a dangerous situation for you but for others around you at the range when you shoot.

Am I over cautious? Over worried? Perhaps . . . but common sense needs to prevail . . . if you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it.

The internet is full of videos on everything from gun reviews to "how to" videos. Most are made by "self proclaimed experts" who shouldn't even be allowed access to a video camera and who give new definition to the words "idiot" and "fool". The other day I watched a review on a handgun I'm considering buying - it was done by a young man who, as he turned the handgun to show the camera a feature on the handgun, pointed it directly at his stomach with a round in the chamber and a full magazine and he had his thumbb resting on the side of the trigger. Like I said . . . "idiot" and "fool".

Kudos to the OP for posting this and I hope it get's left up as EVERYONE should watch it. In years past, I saw a number of accidental shootings when I worked ambulance and fire rescue . . . 110% of them happened through carelessness or just such things as this video shows. Once that primer is struck and that bullet is on it's way . . . it's too late to take it back.

Be Safe!

 

[Nanuk]

I am glad she is OK! Modified gun or not, if it was not pointed at her it would not have shot her. I have been shooting IDPA for 15 years and PPC before that. I have seen some scary gun handling in IDPA, people need to slow down enough to be safe.

 

[TunnelRat]

BUT . . . for those who are stating that "original parts" should be retained and put back in the gun before you sell it are kind of missing the point. THE POINT? If you aren''t skilled and knowledgeable in what you are doing, then don't do it. Too many people own Dremel tools and do backyard tree gunsmithing. Yes . . . you can put the original parts back in when you sell it . . . BUT what about in between the time you do your alterations and when you put the original parts back in? Over modification and over polishing, etc. - coupled with very little understanding of how all the parts interwork can make not only a dangerous situation for you but for others around you at the range when you shoot.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. Not all modifications are the same. Because someone screwed up an action/trigger job doesn't somehow mean that all modification will result in accidental shootings. It just doesn't. Is it a possibility? Sure and that's why when you buy those parts there are notifications on the bags (typically) reminding you that what you're doing is at your own risk and in the manual there are banners telling you that modifying the firearm is not liability assumed by the manufacturer (and it's fair what you say that others can be put at risk too). But there are also the four standard safety rules for a reason. A bang that's unexpected is a bad day. But it doesn't have to result in an ambulance ride. Even on a non-modified firearm those rules are important because mechanical failures, however rare, can happen.

I get you're saying to exercise caution, but to me caution doesn't mean any and all modification is forbidden. And regardless of whether you or a professional gunsmith does the installation, the pistol should be properly tested in as safe an environment as possible for a duration of round count. As we've covered in this thread, there were already some warning signs in terms of malfunctions that were being experienced by the shooter in this case and it wasn't shot extensively before the accident either. I'm not blaming her, but according to the OP even she admits there was more caution that could have been exercised.

The internet is full of videos on everything from gun reviews to "how to" videos. Most are made by "self proclaimed experts" who shouldn't even be allowed access to a video camera and who give new definition to the words "idiot" and "fool". The other day I watched a review on a handgun I'm considering buying - it was done by a young man who, as he turned the handgun to show the camera a feature on the handgun, pointed it directly at his stomach with a round in the chamber and a full magazine and he had his thumbb resting on the side of the trigger. Like I said . . . "idiot" and "fool".

Similar to above, not every person on YouTube is the same. I've watched some decent guides on YouTube, and I've watched some scary behavior as well. YouTube is a collection of people, and quite frankly there are people out there less trustworthy than others. You don't need to be qualified to put videos on YouTube, but not everyone on there is a hayseed either.

 

[MarkCO]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. Not all modifications are the same. Because someone screwed up an action/trigger job doesn't somehow mean that all modification will result in accidental shootings. It just doesn't. Is it a possibility? Sure and that's why when you buy those parts there are notifications on the bags (typically) reminding you that what you're doing is at your own risk

Agree. I have seen professional gunsmiths make major blunders as well.

Modified gun or not, if it was not pointed at her it would not have shot her.

The gun was IN the holster on her strong side hip when it went off...finger not on trigger. If you have shot IDPA, you have had your gun(s) in the same condition.

 

[pilpens]

Should the firing pin safety have caught this?
was the firing pin safety tweek, too?

 

[b.thomas]

some 50 plus years ago when I was in my early 20's, I saw a Browning hi power go machine gun and empty a full mag with one press of the trigger.
Just because some 19 year old knucklehead thought he was a gunsmith.
Ever since then I've real cautious of anyone telling me a gun had the trigger work on. Rather have a stock factory trigger, even on a used gun other then one that's been work on!
Just to many home grown gunsmiths that don't know what the he!! their doing!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Should the firing pin safety have caught this?
was the firing pin safety tweek, too?

They mentioned other changes had been done in the video (though they don't describe them) and I believe MarkCO mentioned earlier that the trigger geometry was changed enough that the firing pin block was no longer able to drop down. So when the sear slipped, there was nothing between the firing pin and the primer.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

1 am glad she is OK! Modified gun or not, if it was not pointed at her it would not have shot her. I have been shooting IDPA for 15 years and PPC before that. I have seen some scary gun handling in IDPA, people need to slow down enough to be safe.

I think you missed the fact that the gun was still in the holster. Most people have the muzzle covering the lower portion of their strong side leg when the gun is in a holster worn somewhere around the 3:00 o'clock position.

 

[dgludwig]

As sort of an aside, I've often wondered if it wouldn't make good sense to make some (depending on the purpose) holsters with a steel (or Kevlar?) "plug" at the toe. Not advocating, per se; just musing whether it would have made a difference in the case at hand or other similar cases.

 

[jdmick]

I think an important distinction needs to be pointed out that a "trigger job" consisting of drop in parts from reputable manufacturers, often including different OEM parts, is a far cry from butchering on sears, disabling safety devices etc. as appears to be the case here. A little research and common sense can go a long way. That said, the seller of this time bomb should be held accountable for his/her actions.

 

[Cheapshooter]

What's really scary is that the guy sitting across from you in a restaurant might just be some Mall Ninja that thinks he knows more about how the gun he is carrying should operate than the gun smiths and engineers that designed it. So he did from a few tweek to extensive modifications to make it work "better" than how the manufacturer made it.