A Ron Paul thread...........hopefully without flames

publius42

New member
That was Paul's most anti-gun vote

That implies that there are other anti-gun votes. Name them.

Do you recall that for a little while on this board, it was claimed (without evidence) that he voted FOR a similar bill federalizing tort law when it comes to doctors? The claim was made that he was not consistent, and didn't mind federalizing tort laws for doctors, only for gun owners. I started asking for evidence, and posted evidence to the contrary, and the claims disappeared.

This implication of yours isn't going to be unsupported like that one was, is it?
 

GoSlash27

New member
unregistered,
Please don't drag us off into the weeds.
And another interesting and informative thread bites the dust.
Thank you, Fremmer :rolleyes:

On second thought, nevermind. Looks like this thread is done.
 

Fremmer

New member
This thread isn't "done" simply because I'm asking questions about Ron Paul's voting record. You can still like him if you want. I like him. But he's not the most constitutional candidate. His misinterpretation of the constitution has already caused him to vote against gun owners' interests. Paul's voting record, combined with statements he's made in the past, tell one far more about his candidacy than these silly general conclusions like "Ron Paul's the most constitutional", "he'll bring us back to the constitution", "he's a strict constructionist", etc.

But I still like him. :)
 

Unregistered

Moderator
But he's not the most constitutional candidate. His misinterpretation of the constitution has already caused him to vote against gun owners' interests.

His point was that the 2nd Amendment cannot be protected using un-consitutional means.

There are plenty of ways we could help the 2nd Amendment but would be unconsitutional.. For example, congress could pass a law saying that the Brady organization cannot speak its anti-gun positions. While this would certainly help the 2nd amendment, it would still be unconstitutional.
 

The Tourist

Moderator
Part of modern discussion is the real treatment of opponents using their rights to free speech. Look at the title of this thread.

I discuss, debate and disagree. You have to really be insulting or confrontational to get me to use the computer to cut you down to size.

I just rarely flame.

However, I am not going to cast my vote on a sound byte. I want to do my own comparisons based on voting, newspaper reports, how they handle themselves during interviews and their commitments to The Constitution.

At this moment, I am not an RP supporter.

But I am not a flamer. And clearly there are times when we have to sit quietly and hear the tirade of our detractors.
 

Jim March

New member
See, there's no rational explanation for his anti-gun vote, no matter how many times you try to explain it away.

The Federal legislature must not use the commerce clause to browbeat states into compliance with anything. It's wrong. It's wrong when the browbeating is for a policy we think is "bad" OR "good".

Dr. Paul was right to say so.
 

Fremmer

New member
This thread is about accomplishments/ lack thereof.

Correct, and Ron Paul's failure to vote to protect the Second Amendment was an enormous failure by Paul to actually accomplish something. He exercised poor judgment when he voted against that bill, based apparently on his erroneous interpretation of the Constitution. Although it is very difficult to pin down the exact reason that he voted the way he did.

"Browbeat?" Is that Ron Paul's legal description of the congressional regulation of interstate commerce? I've never seen the US Supreme Court use that term. I'd like to see Paul's explanation about the "browbeating" , and Paul's interpretation of it in the Constitution.
 

samoand

New member
See, Fremmer, it appears that RP doesn't believe in two wrongs making a right, hence his position on the issue.

If it still doesn't make sense, I'll try to explain by example that might connect a little better. In another thread you kept making references to Nuthouse, apparently meaning Mr. Von NotHaus. My first reaction upon seeing that was to explain how immature distorting names into their insulting versions is by calling you Femmer, and referring to Femmer thereafter . But then I thought about it for a second, and decided against it - just because two wrongs don't make a right.

Now, I believe that RP shares similar views and extends them to his political actions. You can't use unconstitutional means to defend constitution. Having Federal government involved where it doesn't belong, no matter on what side, is a bad idea - even if it allows one to achieve a short term goal as a side effect. See how that works?
 

publius42

New member
Although it is very difficult to pin down the exact reason that he voted the way he did.

I'm still waiting for the other anti-gun votes by Paul which you above implied exist. I guess I'll be waiting a while, though one would think that with a 20 year record in Congress, it wouldn't be too hard to find at least one more example, if he were really anti-gun.

As for why he voted the way he did, it is not difficult at all to pin down. He gave a speech to Congress about it, which I have linked many times, but here you go again.


Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, April 9, 2003

Mr. Speaker, I rise today as a firm believer in the Second amendment and an opponent of all federal gun laws. In fact, I have introduced legislation, the Second Amendment Restoration Act (HR 153), which repeals misguided federal gun control laws such as the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban. I believe the Second amendment is one of the foundations of our constitutional liberties. However, Mr. Speaker, another foundation of those liberties is the oath all of us took to respect constitutional limits on federal power. While I understand and sympathize with the goals of the proponents of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 1036), this bill exceeds those constitutional limitations, and so I must oppose it.

It is long past time for Congress to recognize that not every problem requires a federal solution. This country's founders understood the need to separate power between federal, state, and local governments to maximize individual liberty and make government most responsive to citizens. The reservation of most powers to the states strictly limited the role of the federal government in dealing with civil liability matters; it reserved jurisdiction over matters of civil tort, such as alleged gun-related negligence suits, to the state legislatures.

While I am against the federalization of tort reform, I must voice my complete disapproval of the very nature of these suits brought against gun manufacturers. Lawsuits for monetary damages from gun violence should be filed against the perpetrators of those crimes, not gun manufacturers! Holding manufacturers liable for harm they could neither foresee nor prevent is irresponsible and outlandish. The company that makes a properly functioning product in accordance with the law is acting lawfully, and thus should not be taken to court because of misuse by the purchaser (or in many cases, by a criminal who stole the weapon). Clearly these lawsuits are motivated not by a concern for justice, but by a search for deep pockets and a fanatical anti-gun political agenda.

However, Mr. Speaker, the most disturbing aspect of these lawsuits is the idea that guns, which are inanimate objects, are somehow responsible for crimes. HR 1036 shifts the focus away from criminals and their responsibility for their actions. It adds to the cult of irresponsibility that government unfortunately so often promotes. This further erodes the ethics of individual responsibility for one's own actions that must form the basis of a free and moral society. The root problem of violence is not the gun in the hand, but the gun in the heart: each person is accountable for the deeds that flow out of his or her own heart. One can resort to any means available to commit a crime, such as knives, fertilizer, pipes, or baseball bats. Should we start suing the manufacturers of these products as well because they are used in crimes? Of course not – the implications are preposterous.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights. Despite these lawsuits, the number one threat to gun ownership remains a federal government freed of its constitutional restraints. Expanding that government in any way, no matter how just the cause may seem, is not in the interests of gun owners or lovers of liberty.

In conclusion, while I share the concern over the lawsuits against gun manufacturers, which inspired HR 1036, this bill continues the disturbing trend toward federalization of tort law. Enhancing the power of the federal government is not in the long-term interests of defenders of the Second amendment and other constitutional liberties. Therefore, I must oppose this bill.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
 

publius42

New member
DonR said:
I've asked several times on different forums; what exactly Ron Paul has accomplished in his 20 years as a legislator. From my research I can't find much

A reliable "no" vote shouldn't be taken for granted. ;)

I ran across this site today, with monthly details of RP's activities dating back to 1997.
 

Unregistered

Moderator
Fremmer, I guess you have chosen not to respond. I would still like to know about the other anti-gun votes that RP has cast. Could you please tell me? Or can I take you silence to mean there are none, and you were just making stuff up?
 

Rusty Stud

New member
hmmm...

Ron Paul wins yet another internet thread?
I think the fact that this thread even exists is argument enough. I mean how many internet threads have been started about other candidates? And people talk about him everywhere, even on threads that bear no ties to politics... what gives?
 

amprecon

New member
What has he accomplished in 20 years you ask? He has obviously been voting per his convictions. Apparently his constituents appreciate that. What more would you want in your representative? I guess it depends on what values some voters possess, if any at all in some places.
 

Fremmer

New member
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights.

That doesn't make sense at all. There is nothing unconstitutional about regulating interstate commerce, but Paul doesn't seem to understand that clause very well.

it wouldn't be too hard to find at least one more example, if he were really anti-gun.

It's not hard at all. He also voted against legislation that protected gun dealers and trade organizations from being sued for the wrongful acts of third parties.

That was another vote that he could have cast differently to contribute to getting something accomplished. But he didn't.

Perhaps there are other things he accomplished as the head of a congressional committee?
 
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