A Ron Paul thread...........hopefully without flames

DonR101395

New member
As the title says, if you want to pop in and scream RP sucks, please don't; that thread is down the hall.
Now for the meat of the thread.

I've asked several times on different forums; what exactly Ron Paul has accomplished in his 20 years as a legislator. From my research I can't find much, but I try to keep an open mind and wouldn't mind liking and trusting the guy. This one question keeps going unanswered though, and it really keeps me from thinking he's a qualified candidate when none of his supporters can or at least will outline his crowning moments. Before someone screams google is your friend, please don't. I have and haven't come up with much of anything other than his beliefs on the constitution, which is great, but not enough in my opinion. A candidate also needs the support of his colleagues and subordinates and I haven't seen that with him. all I have witnessed is a cult like following without substance.

Bottom line:
Convert me, tell me what he has done, make it verifiable if possible. No room for flames in this one, that thread is down the hall.
 

GoSlash27

New member
I don't have a list of "accomplishments" handy, but I'd like to address the central premise of your post:
You tie "accomplishment" in congress to "fitness for duty", but those "accomplishments" all too often come at a price; compromise of your position for political expediency.
For example, his stand on the second amendment would not allow him to vote for gun control 'lite' despite the fact that even the NRA was supporting it at the time.
Unfortunately, supporting the Constitution doesn't allow for compromise; you either stand for what you believe in or you're just another politician on the hill.
So if the support of his "colleagues" on the hill is important to your decision I suggest you look elsewhere. They hate his guts (which is one of the reasons why I like him). :cool:
If you want to gauge fitness by 'accomplishments' on the hill, perhaps you should be looking at Ted Kennedy.
 

DonR101395

New member
Let me clarify that GS since I suspect that may have been confusing the previous times I've asked it.
He happens to have spent the last 20 years in congress, so I would like to know more about his performance in that job. If he had spent the last twenty years as a plumber, I would want to know what kind of a plumber he has been and do the other plumbers support him or not.

If you want to gauge fitness by 'accomplishments' on the hill, perhaps you should be looking at Ted Kennedy.


LOL, if he believed in the same things and his accomplishments were in line with my views I would vote for him. But since they are 180 degrees out from me, it's not likely;)
 

GoSlash27

New member
I understand exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying in response is laid out above.
You want "accomplishments" and I don't have a list handy. If you're interested in the type of politician who can generate an impressive list then you're interested in the wrong type of politician IMO and certainly a different type of politician than Dr. Paul.
So if this is important to you, look elsewhere.
 

DonR101395

New member
I understand exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying in response is laid out above.
You want "accomplishments" and I don't have a list handy. If you're interested in the type of politician who can generate an impressive list then you're interested in the wrong type of politician IMO and certainly a different type of politician than Dr. Paul.
So if this is important to you, look elsewhere.


Further clairification:
I'm interested in a candidate that has not only integrity and shares my views, but also has the skill, knowledge and support to get done what he says he can get done. An indicator of future performance is past performance.
 

Unregistered

Moderator
An indicator of future performance is past performance.

Not according to most stock brokers.

Anyway, I think the point GoSlash was making is that "accomplishments", if you define them as bills that a lawmaker writes and gets passed, are not necessarily a good thing in Washington.

For example, George Bush has accomplished many things as president. Campaign Finance Reform, No Child Left Behind, Medicare Reform, Patriot Act, etc. But how many of these accomplishments do you actually support?

Ron Paul has voted more consistently than many others on a strict interpretation of the Constitution. Generally speaking, he votes against any law that he thinks expands federal power in an un-Constitiutional manner. He votes consistently against taxes, and has proposed much legislation to repeal taxes. He has proposed legislation to repeal gun laws. He voted against Campaign Finance Reform, Medicare Reform, and Patriot Act.

I consider all these things accomplishments. Is there a crowning jewel he has proposed that has been signed into law? Nope. But there doesn't need to be. McCain's crowing jewel was Campaign Finance Reform and Immigration Reform. Bush's crowning jewel was Patriot. None of that is good.

For an exhaustive list of RP's voting record, check out this link:

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BC031929
 

Jim March

New member
In order to "get things done", a legislator has to agree to do disgusting things that other legicritters like, in order to get their own bills (good or bad) passed.

Dr. Paul never ONCE played that game. Period, end of discussion. He was at times the sole "no" vote against unconstitutional bills.

One can argue all day long if he was therefore a good or bad legislator. I would argue "good" but that's neither here nor there.

Give a guy like that VETO POWERS and control over the executive branch and oh yeah...HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

DonR101395

New member
Not according to most stock brokers.

But according to most employers and lenders it is;)

Anyway, I think the point GoSlash was making is that "accomplishments", if you define them as bills that a lawmaker writes and gets passed, are not necessarily a good thing in Washington.

For example, George Bush has accomplished many things as president. Campaign Finance Reform, No Child Left Behind, Medicare Reform, Patriot Act, etc. But how many of these accomplishments do you actually support?

Ron Paul has voted more consistently than many others on a strict interpretation of the Constitution. Generally speaking, he votes against any law that he thinks expands federal power in an un-Constitiutional manner. He votes consistently against taxes, and has proposed much legislation to repeal taxes. He has proposed legislation to repeal gun laws. He voted against Campaign Finance Reform, Medicare Reform, and Patriot Act.

A true statement, but nothing has stopped him from introducing legislation to repeal some of the laws he thought were against the constitution.

I consider all these things accomplishments. Is there a crowning jewel he has proposed that has been signed into law? Nope. But there doesn't need to be. McCain's crowing jewel was Campaign Finance Reform and Immigration Reform. Bush's crowning jewel was Patriot. None of that is good.

Maybe there doesn't, but I would like to see a paper trail of him trying to get rid of the laws he feels are against the constitution.


For an exhaustive list of RP's voting record, check out this link:

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_cat...an_id=BC031929

I was liking him better before I saw this; he voted no in nearly every military/DOD/VA/homeland security appropriation bill. That hits me in my livelihood.


In order to "get things done", a legislator has to agree to do disgusting things that other legicritters like, in order to get their own bills (good or bad) passed.

Dr. Paul never ONCE played that game. Period, end of discussion. He was at times the sole "no" vote against unconstitutional bills.

One can argue all day long if he was therefore a good or bad legislator. I would argue "good" but that's neither here nor there.

Give a guy like that VETO POWERS and control over the executive branch and oh yeah...HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, explain to me how a 4 year stalemate would be good? I would like a president who can get things done; not one who's going to hold things up for four years. I just can't see no action as being someone's crown jewel. It's great to have principle, but principle doesn't put food on the table, but principles and performance do.
 

Eghad

New member
What are the other candidates accomplishments?

I know Mitt Romney raised taxes and fees to make up a state deficit. He also passed legislation that mandated you must buy health care coverage or face a tax penalty getting government in the health care business. Isn't he also a born again anti gun guy...lol. he cut state aid to schools forcing tuition to go up.

So who would you choose between Romney and Paul?
 

DonR101395

New member
So who would you choose between Romney and Paul?

I didn't ask about other candidates, but I'll humor you. Neither at this point; luckily they aren't the only choices and I haven't made up my mind as of yet.
I don't want to turn this into a he's better than XX thread. I would just like some solid facts about his performance. so far Tourist has given me some good data on him. I really wish he were more supportive of the things important to me; but it's not a show stopper at this point.
 

crashm1

New member
I don't think he is the guy you should vote for in the primary sir. He is a pretty firm believer in smaller and less restrictive government, very libertarian and free market in outlook. You do not appear to be from this statement "I was liking him better before I saw this; he voted no in nearly every military/DOD/VA/homeland security appropriation bill. That hits me in my livelihood." and this one "LOL, if he believed in the same things and his accomplishments were in line with my views I would vote for him. But since they are 180 degrees out from me, it's not likely".
I disagree with Congressman Paul on a couple issues but of the options we have been presented with he is the best fit for me. I like the fact he stands on principle and that he is consistent in his beliefs. Personally I prefer my politicians to vote no more than yes. I especially want them to vote no on gun laws, taxes, DOMA and stupid wars.
For me and many others, anyone out of the mainstream of party politics is better than we have had for the last 20 years and the last 8 in particular. I admit I have been a libertarian (bordering on anarchist) since I could vote (1980) so he isn't all that much of a stretch for my belief system. One of the interesting things I have been noticing is how much positive attention he has been getting on a couple of sport bike forums I frequent. I think there is a much larger group of citizens who are completely fed up with the authoritarian nanny state both the republicans and democratic leadership has been shoving down our throats than most of the pols realize. I think Ron Pauls message taps into that frustration and anger.
 

fossten

Moderator
DonR, you seem to be more interested in arguing than in seeking information about Ron Paul. Somebody answers your question, and you immediately start disputing his statements.

Let me try, and let's see if you argue with mine:

A true statement, but nothing has stopped him from introducing legislation to repeal some of the laws he thought were against the constitution...

Maybe there doesn't, but I would like to see a paper trail of him trying to get rid of the laws he feels are against the constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul#Legislation

And by the way, Google is your friend. Sorry, you deserve that for not even looking. I googled "Ron Paul introduced legislation" and took the first Wiki link.

I'm sure there's more if you, oh I don't know, did some more searching.

Please, explain to me how a 4 year stalemate would be good? I would like a president who can get things done; not one who's going to hold things up for four years. I just can't see no action as being someone's crown jewel. It's great to have principle, but principle doesn't put food on the table, but principles and performance do.
That's a loaded question followed by an argument. But I will humor you. Your question and argument do not make you sound like you are a conservative, but rather like a dependent liberal. You want government to "get things done"??? Do you realize how scary a prospect that is? On average the federal government passes thousands of new laws every year. Each new law is one less freedom. Do you not think after two hundred and thirty years of existence that we have enough laws?

It's not government's job to solve every problem we have, it's government's job to get out of our way and protect our liberties while we take care of ourselves. You sound like you've bought into the talking point of "Big Government is the Answer to Everything."

You demand that someone show you how Ron Paul has repealed old/bad laws, and in the same breath you demand that a President not "hold things up?" How can you be of two minds on the same issue? Repealing old/bad laws and preventing new laws both contribute toward reducing government control and increasing personal liberty. How is this synonymous with "getting things done?" Or do you only mean by "getting things done" the aforementioned repealing of old/bad laws?

And then you draw a comparison between performance and putting food on the table. Are you saying that the government's performance is directly or indirectly responsible for you having food on your table? If so, that sounds like you are part of the dependency cradle-to-the-grave class. I would suggest that you vote for Hillary Clinton. She is definitely determined to "get things done.". :barf:
 

DonR101395

New member
You do not appear to be from this statement "I was liking him better before I saw this; he voted no in nearly every military/DOD/VA/homeland security appropriation bill. That hits me in my livelihood." and this one "LOL, if he believed in the same things and his accomplishments were in line with my views I would vote for him. But since they are 180 degrees out from me, it's not likely".

The first statement was in reference to his apparent stance on the military. He he doesn't want to fund military housing and pay, you're correct I won't work for free so he's probably not the best guy for me.
The second comment was in reference to Ted Kennedy.


I especially want them to vote no on gun laws, taxes, DOMA and stupid wars.

He voted yes to 3 of the seven gun bills according to the link. Nobody like war, but I'm sure our views are different on that as well.

very libertarian

A huge issue for me. Primarily the drug stance of the party. But, then again it looks like even his supporters can't decide if he's a republican or libertarian. I've been chastised by his supporters on this board for making reference to him and the libertarians.

I think there is a much larger group of citizens who are completely fed up with the authoritarian nanny state both the republicans and democratic leadership has been shoving down our throats than most of the pols realize.


I'm fed up with it as well, but I'm not convinced he can do anything to change it. I have yet to see any evidence of any change he has made or attempted to make in the last 20 years.



Look guys, I understand that he has principles. I get it, I really do. But what about performance?
 

joeybolz

New member
One very significant thing that Ron Paul has done is set an example to all others of what upholding your oath of office means. By this it can also be realized that it IS humanly possibly to not be corrupted when one remains true to his beliefs. Dr Paul introduced himself as the champion of the constitution in one of the early debates and was never challenged. That speaks volumes.
 

crashm1

New member
I apologize I missed the Ted Kennedy reference.
Given his position on not voting for deficit budgets it would be suprising if he would vote yes on DoD appropriations or almost anything else. I was all for Afghanistan and personally thought we ought to nail Saudi Arabia as well considering the amount of Saudi money and aid that goes to Wahabist groups. Iraq not so much. I never bought into the WMD arguement and if the Iraqis were okay enough with Saddam to not revolt I saw no reason to waste our nations blood and treasure on freeing them.

He voted yes to 3 of the seven gun bills according to the link.

I have listed the three gun bills he voted yes on
H Amdt 1156 to HR 5672: An amendment that prohibits funds in the bill from being used to enforce a trigger lock on guns provision in law.
HR 5092: To modernize and reform the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

Project Vote Smart's Synopsis:

Vote to pass a bill that amends the federal criminal code regarding firearms and explosives, changes the civil penalties for violating firearm regulations and directs the Attorney General to establish guidelines for investigations.

Highlights:

- Modifies existing law from allowing the Attorney General to immediately revoke firearm licenses, after proper notification to the licensee, to a system of fines based upon the severity of the violation and the prior record of the firearm's licensee (Sec. 2)

-Authorizes the Attorney General to make preliminary decisions to approve or deny a federal firearms license application and gives applicants the right to a hearing for license denials (Sec. 3)

-Requires the Attorney General to create specific guidelines for investigations, inspections and examinations made by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (Sec. 5)

-Instructs the Inspector General of the Department of Justice to review the operations of gun show enforcement programs on residency checks of firearm purchasers; the Inspector General shall report these findings within one year to the Judiciary Committees of both the House and Senate (Sec 6.)

-Sets limits on who can have access to the information gathered from individual firearm licenses (Sec. 7)

H.AMDT.215: Amendment defines what constitutes a sale at a gun show; requires background checks at gun shows to be completed within 24 hours; allows dealers to deal at gun shows face-to-face; and increases the penalty for those who use guns with a large-capacity magazine during the commission of crimes.
Not too anti gun in my opinion.


A huge issue for me. Primarily the drug stance of the party.

I am a recovering drunk and addict and I see no upside to our current drug laws. They do nothing positive and a great many negatives come out of them. A couple examples the militarization of our police, asset forfiture laws, the fact we have more people locked up than Russia, a majority of them for drug crimes. Add to that the cash that I need to give uncle sam to pay for something that doesn't work and I see little reason not to try something cheaper like legalization.

Things he has done from the wiki article:
"By successfully amending other legislation, he has also barred International Criminal Court jurisdiction over the U.S. military (2002), American participation in any U.N. "global tax" (2005), and surveillance on peaceful First Amendment activities by citizens (2006).[72]
Paul said that between 2001 and early 2004 he had voted against more than 700 bills intended to expand government.[81]
Paul introduced "Sunlight Rule" legislation, which would not allow votes on legislation to occur until ten days after its introduction, with the intent of giving lawmakers enough time to read bills before voting on them. The bill requires allotting 72 hours for House members and staff to examine the contents of amendments.[82]
On October 15, 2007, Paul introduced the American Freedom Agenda Act of 2007, which would "bar the use of evidence obtained through torture; require that federal intelligence gathering is conducted in accordance with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA); create a mechanism for challenging presidential signing statements; repeal the Military Commissions Act, which, among other things, denies habeas corpus to certain detainees; prohibit kidnapping, detentions, and torture abroad; protect journalists who publish information received from the executive branch; and ensure that secret evidence is not used to designate individuals or organizations with a presence in the U.S. as foreign terrorists."[88]
Paul was on a bipartisan coalition of 17 members of Congress that sued President Bill Clinton in 1999 over his conduct of the Kosovo war. They accused Clinton of failing to inform Congress of the action's status within 48 hours as required by WPR, and of failing to obtain Congressional declaration of war as specifically required in the Constitution. Congress had voted 427–2 against a declaration of war with Yugoslavia, and had voted to deny support for the air campaign in Kosovo.

There is a ton more info outlining what he has done in congress and his beliefs.
.
 

publius42

New member
I would like to know more about his performance in that job.

Well, he voted NO enough times to be nicknamed Dr. No, and that's a great job qualification if you ask me. Government spending under the Clinton regime grew by $380 billion. Under Bush, it has grown by about a trillion.

We need someone up there who knows how to say NO, and who has demonstrated that ability better or for longer than Ron Paul?

If opposing attempts to expand the government is not important to you, then don't vote for Ron Paul. It is important to me, so I will.
 

publius42

New member
all I have witnessed is a cult like following without substance.

Yeah, that's a good way to keep the flames down. Ask a question and then insult the people from whom you want an answer.

Can you cite, with quotes, my cult like behavior? Or, if I'm one of the good ones, cite it from others.

Is going from a nobody who did not register on national polls to 4th place in cash on hand and starting to show up in the polls a demonstration of the lack of substance you are referencing?
 

Fremmer

New member
I've asked several times on different forums; what exactly Ron Paul has accomplished in his 20 years as a legislator. From my research I can't find much

Yep. Not much.

Oh yeah, I forgot: he sued President Clinton over Kosovo. That worked out pretty well.

He repeatedly misinterprets the constitution; he sometimes even ignores it.

Regardless, the OP is correct: he hasn't accomplished much except to remain entrenched in congress year after year.
And Hillbama would tear him apart in the debates.
 

GoSlash27

New member
nothing has stopped him from introducing legislation to repeal some of the laws he thought were against the constitution.
So you *do* consider such acts "accomplishments?"
Then how about this:

Pro-2nd Amdt
Author H.R. 1096 (repeal Brady and FFL "reform")
Author H.R. 1897 (end national park ban)
Author H.R. 3305 (allow airline crews to carry)
Author H.R. 1146 (end membership in UN)
Opposed H.R. 2640 (recent Brady expansion)
Introduced the legislation to repeal AWB (don't remember the docket)

In the last 2 congresses, He has sponsored 144 pieces of legislation and co-sponsored 677 more. There's no way I'm gonna sit here and list them all for you. Easier to point you here.

But again, if you're looking for someone who can point to the toxic spill of bad law pouring out of Washington and take credit for "working with his colleagues" to generate a few more gallons of it, you're barking up the wrong tree.

His shining moments are in what he didn't do and what he worked against.
 

Eghad

New member
What about the accomplishments of Rudy ?

Gets plus points for being a former federal prosecutor. Minus points for abusing his powers as a federal prosecutor by arranging public arrests and humiliation then dropping the charges. Kerick was Rudy's boy raised up from his days of driving Rudy's limousine during the campaigns to the top spot in New York City law enforcement. Now looking at some prison time because Rudy recommended him for the Homeland Security Chief. Rudy is also one of them born again gun rights guys....he has seen the light now.

Rudy consistently fought oversight of the city by agencies legally chartered to do so during his imperial reign. He and Hillary share the same penchant for squashing the opposition. When Commissioner Bratton made the cover of a national magazine and usurped his place in the spotlight he was let go. Seems to me Rudy is somewhat self centered and would be willing to flaunt individual rights to be the man.

Where would Rudy be if 9/11 had never happened? Suddenly Risen from the ashes to become America's hero from a self centered guy. He even tried to pawn off his bad decisions to others. :eek:

we can look forward to the yesrudis immigrating to Washington to be with him...
 
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