A Fox, Hunting

[big al hunter]

My biggest reason for disagreement with the idea that it is magnetic alignment is that the other animals use it in both directions. Migratory birds fly North and South equally well. Deer graze North and South. Polarity makes no difference which direction they are facing. If the fox is using magnetic alignment it should have equal results North and South. Because the fox has a tremendous difference in success to the south, it must be some other factor influencing the outcome.

Owls catch mice under the snow, at night and do so without the aid of clear vision or sonar, but rather by focusing on the origin of a sound.

And it does not matter if they are flying North, south, east or West, because they are using their ears and only their ears. The fox is using his ears and eyes together. If the Fox only used his ears he would be close to equally successful in all directions. Because the Fox is experiencing almost zero success in all but 1 direction there must be a factor that influences the other 3 direction negatively, or 1 direction positively. I see the sun glare as a far more likely explanation for negative effect, than magnetic alignment for a positive effect..

 

[Art Eatman]

Next question: What's the success rate for his night-hunting?

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Art Eatman:

Next question: What's the success rate for his night-hunting?

...and cloudy days. Big Al is assuming that the glare is what reduces the fox's success rate when it's not facing north because it inhibits it's sight. But the video does not state the fox is using the Magnetic field to FIND the mouse, or even establish where it's going to jump. It has already done that by it's acute hearing. According to the video, the fox uses the magnetic field not to hone in on the mouse, but to plot the distance and his trajectory to hit the spot that his hearing and sight have already established.

 

[Pond James Pond]

The fox is using his ears and eyes together.

And how do you know this?

Just because his eye are open, does not mean he is depending on them as part of the hunt?

The only reason the fox is looking where he is going to pounce is because his ears happen to point in the same direction as his eyes!!!

That to me is the simplest explanation for the involvement of the eyes in a hunt for mice a foot under the snow...

On the one hand you dismiss comparisons made with other animals that rely on hearing but then bring in your own comparisons to species that navigate by magnetism.
Seems a tad inconsistent to me.

 

[big al hunter]

On the one hand you dismiss comparisons made with other animals that rely on hearing but then bring in your own comparisons to species that navigate by magnetism. Seems a tad inconsistent to me.

I am attempting to show why I believe the magnetism is not a valid argument for why North is so consistently successful. Nature is generally very consistent. Creatures that use magnetic fields for guidance use it equally well traveling North or south. It would be inconsistent of nature to not give the fox the same ability facing North or South.
If the fox was using his ears as his only guidance system his success would be consistent in any direction. That leaves vision as the major influencing factor.

Next question: What's the success rate for his night-hunting?

Let's make a pot of coffee and spend a few nights watching a fox....I would like to get to know you Art. I like your style.

...and cloudy days. Big Al is assuming that the glare is what reduces the fox's success rate when it's not facing north because it inhibits it's sight. But the video does not state the fox is using the Magnetic field to FIND the mouse, or even establish where it's going to jump.

that was also not discussed in detail on the video. It was all rather vague as to the details of the study. Without those details we could argue all year. So I will agree that on cloudy days, if the success rates where the same as sunny days I would be wrong. They did not specify the conditions, so I assume they only studied on warm sunny days (because they are not used to the cold )

 

[big al hunter]

According to the video, the fox uses the magnetic field not to hone in on the mouse, but to plot the distance and his trajectory to hit the spot that his hearing and sight have already established.

I had to go back and watch the video again. And.... Your right!!!! The scientist said that the fox is doing complex math to calculate trajectory. BUT, it only works when facing north.

Really??? Why can the fox do math facing north but not south. Did he forget how? The statement in the video makes no sense to me.

 

[Art Eatman]

Heh. The last fox that I was really close to, I boinked his nose with my boot toe. His nose reappeared through his anus as he practiced being elsewhere with extreme rapidity. A rapidly disappearing four-legged bottle-brush.

(Lip-squeaking like unto a little mousie can cause a lack of caution.)

 

[Willie Lowman]

Big Al, did you bother to do any research into this or did you just watch that video and start crying "BS"? From your posts, I'm sure I know the answer to that.


http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/01/06/rsbl.2010.1145.full

 

[Pond James Pond]

Nature is generally very consistent. Creatures that use magnetic fields for guidance use it equally well traveling North or south. It would be inconsistent of nature to not give the fox the same ability facing North or South.
If the fox was using his ears as his only guidance system his success would be consistent in any direction. That leaves vision as the major influencing factor.

Key word highlighted: Nature is generally very consistent.

With that you entertain the possibility that the fox does not fit the norm as we know today.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that there is at least a link between his ears and the magnetic fields of our planet that might not include the eyes.

Your assumption that the eyes are automatically involved is not supported in this case. It may well be natures norm to hunt with the eyes, but then it is natures norm that the prey be within line of sight: not so under snow....

I think Willie Lowman's link carries convincing weight.

 

[big al hunter]

Thank you Willie, that was a good read. I learned something today. I must note that in the text you linked there is a reference to a cluster of successful attacks to the south. The video did not say that. And yes I just watched the video and called B.S. With the explanation given it makes more sense than "the fox is more accurate when facing North". It is my nature to doubt that which is incomplete. Especially when it has contradictory evidence as part of its presentation. Rarely is it necessary for me to do it but this time I must open mouth, insert foot.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Amusing little animal in this behavior. Determined little fellow. No doubt about that. When snowmobiling across my fields sometimes I would come across Mr. Slinky's tracks. I always wanted to observe a fox doing this in our 2-1/2' high snow. {Tracks a hole some more tracks another deeper hole.} On & on till he caught something. Do coyote's catch their mice in the same manner? Anyway now I seen it all. I'm still here. __Thanks for the posting Sir.

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by big al hunter:

I had to go back and watch the video again. And.... Your right!!!! The scientist said that the fox is doing complex math to calculate trajectory. BUT, it only works when facing north.

Really??? Why can the fox do math facing north but not south. Did he forget how? The statement in the video makes no sense to me.

My grandpa always told me when I was young, that real men aren't ashamed to admit when they are wrong. Iffin he was still around you would've gained his respect.

I actually figured your reply would have still been about the influence of the glare affecting the hunt. I expected a statement that since the fox was continuously avoiding the glare, he would be hunting facing north the majority of the time. Since the prevailing winds at that latitude are from the west, the fox would have much more experience adjusting for them affecting his trajectory and thus his success rate would be higher when all those conditions were the same.

One must remember that part of the trajectory is thru 3 feet of snow. The arc of the foxes jump does not stop at the surface of the snow. The fox does not know exactly how deep the snow is at that spot........this is where I believe the magnetic field has an influence. It tells the fox how far the ground(and the mouse) is below the surface of the snow, and thus he can adjust his trajectory accordingly. I doubt very much if the fox knows how this works or even if it's aware it's doing it. I'm sure it's a skill/instinct that has evolved because those most successful doing it tend to live and breed. We as humans may use it or something similar also and just don't realize it. Or we may have lost it thru evolution because we didn't use it. One interesting theory I heard a while back had to do with why human senses are so limited compared to wild animals. Has to do with looks. We as humans many times pick our partner by the way they look. Because of this, attractive people get more attention and interest by others as potential mates. Thus attractive people tend to mate more often and at an earlier age. Big ears, big noses and big eyes with predominate overbrow giving protection from the sun/glare are features that give support to the senses. They are also features that most humans find unattractive. Thus over the ions, those traits have been lost thru evolution.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lotsa critter research in the effort to figure out, "How do they do that?"

Last night on TV, there was a segment about polar bears. They can smell a seal under four feet of snow, from over a hundred yards of distance. The camera followed the bear for well over a hundred yards as it finally went to sneak-mode and then rapidly dug down and grabbed the seal.

 

[big al hunter]

After reading that the foxes had a sizable advantage southbound as well as North I had to concede. That was the major reason I was doubting the theory. When your wrong your wrong. Learn from it. My dad was big on honesty, so am I. Only a coward won't admit when they are wrong.

Animals have some amazing abilities. Watching them use those abilities is part of the hunting experience that I enjoy, almost as much as eating an elk steak.

 

[Art Eatman]

Opportunists, also. I was dragging a shredder around a dead-grass/weed area one afternoon and after some five or so acres I paused for a moment to just look around.

I saw that several hawks were perched in trees around me, and there were a couple of foxes in the mowed area.

Field mice. Hey, "I done gone and made a smorgasbord!"

Now, just how did they figure that out? It was the first time I'd shredded in nearly a year.

 

[shortwave]

Have had hawks and crows do the same when plowing fields. They seem to align the fields in trees or even fence posts awaiting that field mouse, mole or even a snake to be turned up.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I don't think it is magnetism alone and I'll tell you why, the fox doesn't always orient north. If orienting to magnetic north increased his success rate b/c the fox could feel/sense something differently pointed straight north it would orient north when hunting under the snow.
The fox obviously doesn't know "north"/"South" is the key, so I doubt it is the key to success. I think something else is at play.

 

[Art Eatman]

As mysterious as a thermos bottle, right?

 

[shortwave]

The fox obviously doesn't know "north"/"South" is the key, so I doubt it is the key to success. I think something else is at play.

You mean I changed chairs at the dinner table for nothing?

 

[Art Eatman]

Shifting emphasis: I am regularly amazed by the dedication and patience of the people who do these studies. The hours, days, weeks, months and years of observation and recording the activities of wildlife.

A recent NatGeo program focussed on a man who spent some five years in study of the wildlife of a preserve in Africa. He'd learned individual animals and their habits. There was another photographer who took pictures of the researcher as the man was withing twenty or thirty feet of feeding lions, taking pictures of them at "lunch". Dedication. There was lot of footage of the interaction of predators, taken up close and personal.

So I can't help but wonder at the amount of time spent to get the videos of our fox during his hunting.