9th circuit sends CA AW ban case ( Miller v Bointa ) back down to lower court .

Metal god

New member
So, what you are saying is that the "common use" test in Heller would have to be specifically applied to the AR-15 by SCOTUS?

Yes , if you want it nationally . If the Judge rules the law unconstitutional again . I say again because this court already had a full hearing on this specific case 3 years ago and ruled then the CA AW ban was unconstitutional . Note - this court used the text and tradition method to come to his conclusion the first time . Now that he has Bruen basically affirming his original decision . We in the firearms community believe he will rule the same way again .

"When" this happens it will only be binding in CA . However the 9th circuit will almost certainly put a stay on his ruling .

I will add to your question though , Why doesn't his ruling become national ? We see Federal judges ruling all the time impact the entire united states , usually with political or social issues but we do see it happen . Didn't the recent abortion pill ruling effect the whole nation yet it was just one federal judge in one state , Can that happen here ?
 
Last edited:
Metal god said:
I will add to your question though , Why doesn't his ruling become national ? We see Federal judges ruling all the time impact the entire united states , usually with political or social issues but we do see it happen . Didn't the recent abortion pill ruling effect the whole nation yet it was just one federal judge in one state , Can that happen here ?
No, we don't see federal judges making rulings that affect the entire country. A ruling at the district level doesn't even establish binding precedent. A ruling at the circuit court of appeals level establishes precedent that is only binding within that circuit. Another circuit court of appeals may decide a similar issue in the opposite way. When that happens, we have what is known as a "circuit split." The Supreme Court doesn't want the same law being applied differently in different parts of the country, so a high priority for the SCOTUS is to accept and resolve cases where there is a circuit split.
 

44 AMP

Staff
So, what you are saying is that the "common use" test in Heller would have to be specifically applied to the AR-15 by SCOTUS?

Not exactly, but sort of. The issues arises from a combination of what I call "court speak" and the various agenda driven people in different departments and levels of government (Fed, State, city, etc) believing that they can do any/everything not specifically and clearly prohibited by SCOTUS.

In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment protects “arms ‘in common use at the time’ for lawful purposes like self-defense” and arms that are “typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes.”

Now things get a bit tricksy, because there is the actual ruling on the case (Heller vs. DC) which said DC could not ban handguns. The reasoning behind that ruling is explained by the "in common use" language. But its not the actual ruling, directly, its a part of it, and one that the anti gun people easily "break off" and essentially, ignore.

Additionally, the court speak of the explanation gives them what they see as a loophole. Translating the court speak (a bit) the part about items in common use, and the part about other gun control laws being "presumed legal (Constitutional) is related to the (intentionally) overlooked part of the explanation where they essentially said, "Since we're not looking at that, today, we will presume them to be legal, and the implied "until we do look at them, directly".

THIS is how the court works. They look at the issues, in a specific case, and make a specific ruling. THE REST OF THE COUNTRY grabs that specific ruling, or the part of it they want, and runs with it as a general rule.

One of the huge historical examples of that was the Miller decision on the 1934 NFA. That court ruled that "since we have been shown no evidence" (and, they weren't) that the sawed off shotgun in the case was not a milita weapon and therefore not protected under the 2nd Amendment.
That's literally, all they ruled, but the rest of the country took that to mean the entire NFA was Constitutional and we've operated on that ever since.

Another point, widely misunderstood by the general public, is that SCOTUS is not required, and will not "correct misinterpretations" of their rulings. Doing that isn't their job. That is the job of the lower courts. SCOTUS won't get involved, unless a specific case comes before them where an interpretation of a previous SCOTUS ruling is involved. And that is something that happens when there is a "circuit split" as well.

One of the things Heller said (boiled down a bit) is that DC could not ban an entire class of weapons. But "thou cannot ban" is NOT "thou cannot restrict" so we are in a situation where what we are sure the court meant and what others think the court meant are different, and the court will not say who is right, (again, not their job) until a they rule on a case that directly covers this issue.

I believe that until we get a SCOTUS ruling that specifically says "you may not restrict AR-15s (or "assault weapons" or some similar term) there will be people trying to restrict them. And, I suspect, that even if we got a ruling that said those exact words, we'd still have people trying to work around that.

All for our own good, of course...:rolleyes:
 
So, in declaring any AWB unconstitutional, they (lower courts) would apply the common use test? Since the AWB's I've read about are kind of vague how would that help you with the AR-15 or shouldn't it now be applied to ALL guns in common use?
 

Metal god

New member
If it comes up again or maybe the CA Miller case ( the case this thread is about ) . The in common use wording will be said but it won’t be the substance of the ruling . I don’t even think it will say you can’t ban AW . I suspect it will say something like the semi automatic center fire rifle has been in common use since they were invented. Therefore they are protected under the 2nd amendment. Furthermore we do not believe banning features that don’t substantially effect the internal operations of the firearm shall be banned either .

This type of wording will destroy 99% of all AW bans because they ban semiautomatic center fire firearms with one or more of those “external” features . One of the newer anti gun arguments is that these so called features make it easier for criminals to use the weapon therefore under the guys of safety we need to ban these features . Several courts have already said that is not a good enough reason pointing out by banning those features you are actually making the firearm less safe for law abiding citizens to use said weapons .

The next thing will be standard capacity mags 17rd hand gun and 30rd rifle magazines. These are also in common use and I believe this judge is hearing a large cap mag case as well . He has already ruled the state can’t arbitrarily make up a limiting number with out evidence it has a relevance to safety . That was before Bruen , I have no idea how mag restrictions pass constitutional muster after Bruen . I’ve not read any anti post Bruen arguments on mag restrictions yet .
 
Top