9mm Powder recommendation for Factory like w lead bullet
- Thread starter ghbucky
- Start date
I wish I could give you a straight answer to your question.
"Factory like" is a nebulous term. Basic range ammo would be easier. Full-throttle defense ammo would be more difficult.
I don't load much 9mm because I don't shoot it recreationally. I only have a couple 9mm guns. One is my carry. I take it (and usually the other at the same time) out for some practice but a couple times a year. And I have a lot of factory ammo. So admittedly, my loading experience with it is limited.
9mm is prone to leading. I loaded some hard cast 147's using HS-6. They were low pressure rounds and ran sooty. And even at that, there was some leading. I shelved the project, meaning to get back to it. That was about 6 years ago
. I suspect 9mm barrels aren't made with tight tolerances.
There's lot of opinions and approaches to this age-old problem. Personally, I have only had good luck mitigating barrel leading with 45 ACP. I shoot revolver 90+% of the time. 38 Special and 44 Special are both considered good candidates for minimal leading ammo. Not for me. I've been loading since 1984, have loaded many 10's of thousands of rounds of lead ammo, and have managed to produce exactly zero 38 or 44 Special rounds that didn't lead the barrel - zero. They were all unacceptably lead prone. Every single one of them - and I tried every combination you could possibly imagine. I don't load lead bullets any more. Don't need the headache - I'm too darn old. BTW, coated bullets leaded worse than non-coated for me. All my range fodder these days is plated. Love plated ammo. Works great and is still plenty economical for me. So much easier to work with while loading. So much easier to clean my guns. No lube smoke at the range. Just so much nicer all-around. Well worth the small extra cost.
"Factory like" is a nebulous term. Basic range ammo would be easier. Full-throttle defense ammo would be more difficult.
I don't load much 9mm because I don't shoot it recreationally. I only have a couple 9mm guns. One is my carry. I take it (and usually the other at the same time) out for some practice but a couple times a year. And I have a lot of factory ammo. So admittedly, my loading experience with it is limited.
9mm is prone to leading. I loaded some hard cast 147's using HS-6. They were low pressure rounds and ran sooty. And even at that, there was some leading. I shelved the project, meaning to get back to it. That was about 6 years ago
. I suspect 9mm barrels aren't made with tight tolerances.The question is over-simplified. The propellant is only one piece of the puzzle that must be correct to mitigate barrel leading. But you do want to stick with low energy propellants. W231/HP-38, Unique, HS-6, AA#5 are good choices. Bullseye TiteGroup, and Power Pistol are energetic and should be avoided. Those are just "for instances." Also, using intermediate burn rate propellants (as opposed to fast propellants), will yield a more gradual pressure curve, and lead likes that. That would rule out W231/HP-38; leaving Unique, HS-6, & AA#5 of the ones I mentioned. And you don't load the propellants up to where they run their best - you actually want to "de-tune" quite a bit. This will have the undesired effect of the propellant not running clean; but most feel it's a more than fair trade-off to barrel leading.
There's lot of opinions and approaches to this age-old problem. Personally, I have only had good luck mitigating barrel leading with 45 ACP. I shoot revolver 90+% of the time. 38 Special and 44 Special are both considered good candidates for minimal leading ammo. Not for me. I've been loading since 1984, have loaded many 10's of thousands of rounds of lead ammo, and have managed to produce exactly zero 38 or 44 Special rounds that didn't lead the barrel - zero. They were all unacceptably lead prone. Every single one of them - and I tried every combination you could possibly imagine. I don't load lead bullets any more. Don't need the headache - I'm too darn old. BTW, coated bullets leaded worse than non-coated for me. All my range fodder these days is plated. Love plated ammo. Works great and is still plenty economical for me. So much easier to work with while loading. So much easier to clean my guns. No lube smoke at the range. Just so much nicer all-around. Well worth the small extra cost.
big al hunter
New member
If "coated" means you are powder coating, you can use Titegroup, Power Pistol or any other of the commonly used powders for 9mm. I load with Titegroup and powder coated bullets with no leading at near max charges. I also load powder coated in 44 mag with no leading at max book charges of 2400, no leading.
If you are talking about some other coating, then what Nick C S told you is better advice.
These are coated bullets from SNS casting. They use a Polymer coating from http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/
And by 'factory like' I am looking for felt recoil similar to SD ammo.
And by 'factory like' I am looking for felt recoil similar to SD ammo.
603Country
New member
I use 231, Unique, and Universal. Used Unique for decades, but prefer 231 and Universal these days. Easier to meter accurately, During the last big ammo shortage, or the one before that, all I could get for the 9mm was cast bullets. I don’t have my loading books in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I used the same load for them that I now use for plated bullets. Find a load that will reliably cycle the action, even if you limp wrist it. My first decent load turned out to be not quite decent when the limp wristing granddaughters showed up (the wife too). So I upped the load a bit.
Regardless of any one individuals experience, the 9 mm seems to be prone to various problems shooting cast bullets. Many tried but gave up before success, while many others worked long and hard at it before they got leading free performance. Some got lucky and had no problems.
I was in the "worked long and hard" category above. I have participated in many threads on cast in the 9 mm (mostly at the cast boolits forum). I eventually assembled some info to make it easy on myself when the issue comes up. Here is my "canned response":
First lets start out with something that combines a good measure of truth with some humor.
Take your time and read the following. Then do it. As corny and funny as it may sound, it is probably as good a solution as is available.
The 9 mm can be very frustrating. Do not let that put you off. The solution is simple. There 10 easy steps to the 9mm.
Step 1: Try what you have and what you think might work. Take notes. You might get lucky.
Step 2: If step 1 did not work, tell us exactly what you did.
Step 3: Sort through the 50 suggestions, pick one.
Step 4: Try it and hope you get lucky.
Step 5: If it did not work, tell us exactly what you did and what happened.
Step 6: Sort through the 40 suggestions. Pick a new suggestion.
Step 7: Try it and hope you get lucky.
Step 8: If it did not work, go back to step 5.
Step 9: After you get something that works, assume you are an expert and provide suggestions when some else shares their problems.
Step 10: After a bunch of newbies ignore your suggestions, come to understand that the 9mm is too finicky to ever be simple and work the same way for anybody else.
Now for me, the combination below has worked. It may help others figure out something that may want to try next.
I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits. I Also I am convinced that sorting headstamps is an easy thing to try early on when your are having problems. Some headstamps seem to be much worse than others for sizing bullets down. For me this was obvious from the effort required when running the brass over the expander plug.
I was in the "worked long and hard" category above. I have participated in many threads on cast in the 9 mm (mostly at the cast boolits forum). I eventually assembled some info to make it easy on myself when the issue comes up. Here is my "canned response":
First lets start out with something that combines a good measure of truth with some humor.
Take your time and read the following. Then do it. As corny and funny as it may sound, it is probably as good a solution as is available.
The 9 mm can be very frustrating. Do not let that put you off. The solution is simple. There 10 easy steps to the 9mm.
Step 1: Try what you have and what you think might work. Take notes. You might get lucky.
Step 2: If step 1 did not work, tell us exactly what you did.
Step 3: Sort through the 50 suggestions, pick one.
Step 4: Try it and hope you get lucky.
Step 5: If it did not work, tell us exactly what you did and what happened.
Step 6: Sort through the 40 suggestions. Pick a new suggestion.
Step 7: Try it and hope you get lucky.
Step 8: If it did not work, go back to step 5.
Step 9: After you get something that works, assume you are an expert and provide suggestions when some else shares their problems.
Step 10: After a bunch of newbies ignore your suggestions, come to understand that the 9mm is too finicky to ever be simple and work the same way for anybody else.
Now for me, the combination below has worked. It may help others figure out something that may want to try next.
- I use a custom deep plug 0.3575" expander
- I use 0.3595" PC coated boolits (Lee 120 TC)
- I use select brass, a mix of Blazer, FC and CCI
- I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps
- I can now use any powder I want and loads up to book max with great accuracy and no leading.
I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits. I Also I am convinced that sorting headstamps is an easy thing to try early on when your are having problems. Some headstamps seem to be much worse than others for sizing bullets down. For me this was obvious from the effort required when running the brass over the expander plug.
My experiences have been quite the opposite of Nick's. I started out with cast loading a Lee 300gr for my 454. Granted it has a gas check but it is also loaded to right around 1600fps normally and has been higher but I've never really felt a need for that.
As for 9mm through other 45s yep load all those with cast as well. I shoot both coated and conventional lubed with the latter being the bulk. I use both the stick type lubes installed with a lubsizer, and LLA even for the 454.
Yes I have had leading, but usually I knew ahead of time it was likely going to be due to the alloy and or the load. That said the powder coated are no different than the conventional lubed, fit if first and foremost, lube is next. With those two in order most other things usually fall in line.
I think the biggest issue to 9mm is the short case with the quick internal taper. I have seen that it will swage the base of some cast bullets down when seated. This is never a good thing. Once the base is smaller nothing good comes from it no matter how the bullets are lubed.
I usually separate my brass by headstamp then load small batches initially to verify all is well before I do a typical 500 or 1K round full run. Once I've finished testing out a new to me brand of cases I load accordingly. Some I only load jacketed some it don't matter. Some are tighter some have more spring back. Just keep things like that in mind and your cast loads will or should move along fine.
As for 9mm through other 45s yep load all those with cast as well. I shoot both coated and conventional lubed with the latter being the bulk. I use both the stick type lubes installed with a lubsizer, and LLA even for the 454.
Yes I have had leading, but usually I knew ahead of time it was likely going to be due to the alloy and or the load. That said the powder coated are no different than the conventional lubed, fit if first and foremost, lube is next. With those two in order most other things usually fall in line.
I think the biggest issue to 9mm is the short case with the quick internal taper. I have seen that it will swage the base of some cast bullets down when seated. This is never a good thing. Once the base is smaller nothing good comes from it no matter how the bullets are lubed.
I usually separate my brass by headstamp then load small batches initially to verify all is well before I do a typical 500 or 1K round full run. Once I've finished testing out a new to me brand of cases I load accordingly. Some I only load jacketed some it don't matter. Some are tighter some have more spring back. Just keep things like that in mind and your cast loads will or should move along fine.
Update: I did some testing with 125gr LRN over Power Pistol. Lyman has data for 120 gr LRN so I worked off of that.
I tested up to max published data with no pressure signs. Pretty peppy. Only 6 rounds but I can't find any signs of leading.
I guess I'm going to have to sort head stamps.
I tested up to max published data with no pressure signs. Pretty peppy. Only 6 rounds but I can't find any signs of leading.
I guess I'm going to have to sort head stamps.
ghbucky, Power Pistol is my go-to powder for now in 9 mm and 45 ACP as I have a lot of it I got a deal on at a going out of business sale year ago. I shoot a NOE and Lee clone of the RCBS 124 gr. TC bullet that I cast and coat myself sized to .357" for my Canik TP9SA. I use 5.0 grs. for a MV of just over 1100 fps.
If you don't have one and plan on shooting cast lead in handguns and rifles a Lyman Cast Bullet Manual #4 would be a good purchase. It has more cast bullet choices, Lyman, Lee, RCBS, SEACO as well a load data than the standard Lyman manual that cover both jacketed and only Lyman bullet mold designs.
I can count on one hand the number of time I've had leading issue in either handguns or rifles and none of them were ever powder related that was even before my powder coat days. I'm going shooting this morning and taking a couple handguns and rifles only shooting cast lead from 900 fps. up to 2300 fps. and at the end of the day all I will need to clean my bores is one wet patch and a couple dry ones just to remove powder residue and thats it.
If you don't have one and plan on shooting cast lead in handguns and rifles a Lyman Cast Bullet Manual #4 would be a good purchase. It has more cast bullet choices, Lyman, Lee, RCBS, SEACO as well a load data than the standard Lyman manual that cover both jacketed and only Lyman bullet mold designs.
I can count on one hand the number of time I've had leading issue in either handguns or rifles and none of them were ever powder related that was even before my powder coat days. I'm going shooting this morning and taking a couple handguns and rifles only shooting cast lead from 900 fps. up to 2300 fps. and at the end of the day all I will need to clean my bores is one wet patch and a couple dry ones just to remove powder residue and thats it.
I load my 9mm Luger ammo with 125~130 grain lead bullets sized to .358". I find it best to use loads that offer about 1,000 FPS Muzzle Velocity...factory ammo in the same weight range will run about 1,100 FPS. In terms of performance, there is little difference. I shoot them in a Ruger S9 and a Taurus 92SS. P Flados put it all quite eloquently. I load 11 different pistol calibers; the 9mm Luger is the most challenging with cast bullets. However using jacketed bullets, it is quite easy.
A couple of other points on leading:
I've run up to 3000 rounds of plain Jane commercial 200-grain lubricated 452 cast lead bullets over 4.8 grains of Bullseye through a 1911 without cleaning and still had no significant bore leading. Other parts of the gun, like the slide and frame, caked up with carbon until it eventually would not go fully into battery without a boost from my thumb (the stopping point for the experiment), but leading was not the issue. There were traces in the corners of the grooves near the throat, but those same traces are present whether I've shot 100 or the full 3000. The load seemed to be scraping lead away as fast as it built up.
What steps have I taken?
The bore condition is smooth. That SA gun has a Clark barrel I put in it, but many 45 Auto 1911 barrels are quite smooth. If you got a rough one with toolmarks anywhere beyond the leade in the throat, consider firelapping.
The bore has nominal dimensions, though the barrel that came with my Goldcup was just as smooth and didn't lead significantly, either, when I figured out how to load for it. My Colt barrel is oval by half a thousandth at the muzzle, but that didn't seem to affect anything.
I load the bullets as straight as I can. I'm using a Lyman M expander profile I turned myself for my Dillon Square Deal. You may have noticed a slight swell around the case that mirrors the location of the edge of the base of the seated bullet. Many reloaders see that mark on only one side of the case and not evenly all around. If you see that uneven mark, it means the bullet is slightly tilted in the case. That increases leading by forcing the bullet to make contact with the mouth of the throat unvenly, shaving lead. A friend of mine with a Dillon 1050 didn't have the Type-M profile but has a custom-turned seating plug that matches the 200-grain SWC's perfectly, and that also seems to straighten them for seating.
I seat lead bullets out pretty far so they are touching the lands when the gun is chambered. When I drop a lead bullet cartridge into the barrel's chamber, I want to see the head level with the back end of the barrel. That further centers the bullet in the bore and mitigates shaving. This makes some bullets unusable as they can be too long to feel from the magazine, but even using soft swaged lead bullets, it cut leading by about half and cut group sizes by about 40%. The gun likes it. The soft lead won't raise pressure doing that.
Other things you can try:
In addition to firelapping it smooth, you can treat a barrel to reduce friction. I've used Sprinco's Plate+ Silver for this purpose. You get the barrel completely clean and degreased and keep it wet with the stuff for 72 hours. After that, bullets shoot like they were moly-coated, though you do have to refresh it every thousand rounds or so, which can be done just by running a patch damp with it into the bore at the end of each cleaning.
You can try treating your powder with the G. David Tubb product called Tubb Dust. You add 10 grains to each pound of powder and roll it around to blend it in. It is intended to prevent copper fouling in rifles, but works by sending hex boron nitride down the tube which lubricates its surface, making it harder for fouling to adhere to it. I've not tried it on leading, personally, since I'm not having an issue, but would give it a try if I had a problem.
I've run up to 3000 rounds of plain Jane commercial 200-grain lubricated 452 cast lead bullets over 4.8 grains of Bullseye through a 1911 without cleaning and still had no significant bore leading. Other parts of the gun, like the slide and frame, caked up with carbon until it eventually would not go fully into battery without a boost from my thumb (the stopping point for the experiment), but leading was not the issue. There were traces in the corners of the grooves near the throat, but those same traces are present whether I've shot 100 or the full 3000. The load seemed to be scraping lead away as fast as it built up.
What steps have I taken?
The bore condition is smooth. That SA gun has a Clark barrel I put in it, but many 45 Auto 1911 barrels are quite smooth. If you got a rough one with toolmarks anywhere beyond the leade in the throat, consider firelapping.
The bore has nominal dimensions, though the barrel that came with my Goldcup was just as smooth and didn't lead significantly, either, when I figured out how to load for it. My Colt barrel is oval by half a thousandth at the muzzle, but that didn't seem to affect anything.
I load the bullets as straight as I can. I'm using a Lyman M expander profile I turned myself for my Dillon Square Deal. You may have noticed a slight swell around the case that mirrors the location of the edge of the base of the seated bullet. Many reloaders see that mark on only one side of the case and not evenly all around. If you see that uneven mark, it means the bullet is slightly tilted in the case. That increases leading by forcing the bullet to make contact with the mouth of the throat unvenly, shaving lead. A friend of mine with a Dillon 1050 didn't have the Type-M profile but has a custom-turned seating plug that matches the 200-grain SWC's perfectly, and that also seems to straighten them for seating.
I seat lead bullets out pretty far so they are touching the lands when the gun is chambered. When I drop a lead bullet cartridge into the barrel's chamber, I want to see the head level with the back end of the barrel. That further centers the bullet in the bore and mitigates shaving. This makes some bullets unusable as they can be too long to feel from the magazine, but even using soft swaged lead bullets, it cut leading by about half and cut group sizes by about 40%. The gun likes it. The soft lead won't raise pressure doing that.
Other things you can try:
In addition to firelapping it smooth, you can treat a barrel to reduce friction. I've used Sprinco's Plate+ Silver for this purpose. You get the barrel completely clean and degreased and keep it wet with the stuff for 72 hours. After that, bullets shoot like they were moly-coated, though you do have to refresh it every thousand rounds or so, which can be done just by running a patch damp with it into the bore at the end of each cleaning.
You can try treating your powder with the G. David Tubb product called Tubb Dust. You add 10 grains to each pound of powder and roll it around to blend it in. It is intended to prevent copper fouling in rifles, but works by sending hex boron nitride down the tube which lubricates its surface, making it harder for fouling to adhere to it. I've not tried it on leading, personally, since I'm not having an issue, but would give it a try if I had a problem.
Thanks for the tips, UncleNick.
My Lee seater die seems to do a pretty good job of getting the bullets in square. I'd never thought about treating the barrel. I'll think about that. I'm doing this so I can get some range time with my carry gun, so I'm not sure I want to mess with it.
The gun is a Springfield XDS. I don't know if Springfield chromes the feed ramp, but it sure looks like it. Its got a mirror finish.
My Lee seater die seems to do a pretty good job of getting the bullets in square. I'd never thought about treating the barrel. I'll think about that. I'm doing this so I can get some range time with my carry gun, so I'm not sure I want to mess with it.
The gun is a Springfield XDS. I don't know if Springfield chromes the feed ramp, but it sure looks like it. Its got a mirror finish.
I use Summers Enterprises cast bullets with Hi-Tek coatings in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP reloads. 125 grain RN over 4.0 grains of Bullseye doesn't lead up my barrels at all. Give a dependable and accurate load. http://www.summersenterprisesllc.com
I use SNS casting bullets, but that is the same coating they use. Can I ask where you found load data for 125gr RN with Bullseye?
I couldn't find anything.