You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
9mm powder change
- Thread starter 308Loader
- Start date
what do pressure signs on 9mm look like then?
"By the time you get cratered primers in a pistol round you are already we beyond acceptable pressures"
"In an auto you will tear the gun up before you notice extraction problems."
"Working up a load...stay within the published Min and Max in the Hodgdon reloading guide !"
"By the time you get cratered primers in a pistol round you are already we beyond acceptable pressures"
"In an auto you will tear the gun up before you notice extraction problems."
"Working up a load...stay within the published Min and Max in the Hodgdon reloading guide !"
Looks like a good plan.
Since your purpose is to make good range shooting ammo, the question becomes "how fast do you need to go?"
When I make range ammo, I want it to run clean (easily accomplished with TG), consistent (low shot over shot velocity variance i.e. Standard Deviation), accurate (of course), and cycles the firearm properly. It's also good if they "feel" like they have a little punch to them; after all, range practice includes getting used to recoil.
Pressure signs in 9mm can be tricky. For me, it's mostly a feel thing. If the recoil is slide jarring, that's a good indicator (assuming your recoil spring is healthy). I don't load a lot of 9mm, and I don't see a lot of need to push it too hard.
I stay with published data from a reliable source; use a chronograph; and use good sense. I know that's vague. But there's two points of good news: First, most modern 9mm's are build pretty sturdy, so that coupled with good sense should keep you out of pressure trouble. Second, your load purpose doesn't require max pressure, so there's no point in running the charges through the roof. Don't loose sight of your purpose - good range ammo.
TiteGroup under 115's is a great combination for your purpose. Your work up should go pretty easy.
Since your purpose is to make good range shooting ammo, the question becomes "how fast do you need to go?"
When I make range ammo, I want it to run clean (easily accomplished with TG), consistent (low shot over shot velocity variance i.e. Standard Deviation), accurate (of course), and cycles the firearm properly. It's also good if they "feel" like they have a little punch to them; after all, range practice includes getting used to recoil.
Pressure signs in 9mm can be tricky. For me, it's mostly a feel thing. If the recoil is slide jarring, that's a good indicator (assuming your recoil spring is healthy). I don't load a lot of 9mm, and I don't see a lot of need to push it too hard.
I stay with published data from a reliable source; use a chronograph; and use good sense. I know that's vague. But there's two points of good news: First, most modern 9mm's are build pretty sturdy, so that coupled with good sense should keep you out of pressure trouble. Second, your load purpose doesn't require max pressure, so there's no point in running the charges through the roof. Don't loose sight of your purpose - good range ammo.
TiteGroup under 115's is a great combination for your purpose. Your work up should go pretty easy.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Another nice thing about TG, it doesn't seem to me to be position sensitive even though using relatively small volume. This is why for me I really love it in .38sp and .357mag. Plus in my experience I have found loads in both these calibers that shoot very accurately in both my revolvers and lever action. I don't have any direct experience, but on Cast Boolits the general opinion is TG doesn't yield the best results with cast lead, but since I shoot exclusively either copper plated or HiTec plated bullets it works great with either of these.
The Hornady manual doesn't list loads with TiteGroup in 9mm because it is not well suited to that cartridge. 9mm performs best with the slower pistol powders. Since Hornady sells bullets they only publish data with powders that will give their bullets best performance. Hodgdon sells powder and they publish data for any of their powders that will work in a cartridge, regardless of whether or not the powder gives good performance. You will need to use Hodgdon's data for TiteGroup in 9mm.
The range from min to max (at least according to the hornady book) is very narrow. I generally load 9mm on a turret press with the lee auto drum. I am going to test consistency this weekend, but it would seem to +/- .1 or .2gr might be something to consider. I whish I had a chronograph! The load ladder I loaded I did with a trickle-er and checked my scale often to be as precise as I could. With such a small amount of powder I can see how a double charge would be harder to detect (if I wasn't paying attention). To double charge with hs6 it would spill out of the case making it a no brainer.
It seems to run much cleaner than HS6. I sent 50rnds down range and my feed ramp was still mirror like (almost). Groups looked great at 3.7-3.8. couldn't see much for pressure signs on the cases or primers, 4.1 seemed to have a deeper indent where the pin hit it still round at the edges. Function was perfect on both pistols.
It seems to run much cleaner than HS6. I sent 50rnds down range and my feed ramp was still mirror like (almost). Groups looked great at 3.7-3.8. couldn't see much for pressure signs on the cases or primers, 4.1 seemed to have a deeper indent where the pin hit it still round at the edges. Function was perfect on both pistols.
9mm is a small capacity high pressure cartridge that performs best with slower pistol powders. TiteGroup is a fast burning pistol powder. Fast burning pistol powders are better suited to low pressure, higher capacity cartridges like 45 Auto and 38 Special. TiteGroup and other powders in its burning range will work in 9mm but there are better suited powders for that application, Universal and Unique on the fast end up to HS6 and AA#7 on the slow.
mmb713 wrote: The Hornady manual doesn't list loads with TiteGroup in 9mm because it is not well suited to that cartridge. 9mm performs best with the slower pistol powders. Since Hornady sells bullets they only publish data with powders that will give their bullets best performance. Hodgdon sells powder and they publish data for any of their powders that will work in a cartridge, regardless of whether or not the powder gives good performance. You will need to use Hodgdon's data for TiteGroup in 9mm.
Did Hornady tell you that they found poor results with Titegroup in the 9mm Luger?
Just one more thing, Hornady 10th edition load manual shows Titegroup loads in the 9mm Luger with 100 grain and 115 grain bullets (pages 865 and 866).
TiteGroup is NOT my choice for 9mm Luger. As you can see, the range from start to max is quite small, so every 0.1gn change can be significant, and the powder produces pressure spikes and the powder burns very hot
If you can't find HS6, you should be looking for Power Pistol, Silhouette, True Blue, WSF, and such.
I tend to choose powders where the range from start to max is at least 1.0gn.
I also always check several sources and start at the lowest start load I can find and work up.
Next, for plated bullets (when I used to try them), I used LEAD bullet data. So, for 9mm Luger and 115gn plated bullet, I show that the ONLY load I have is 3.9gn start and 4.3gn Max, but NRA Precision Pistol shooters have used 2.6-3.4gn for 25 yd line. My data also shows that Rainier P-RN was max at 4.0gn.
So, if I had to use TG, I would start no higher than 3.5gn and work up: say, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, and, maybe, 4.2gn.
Always remember that loads in a manual only tell you what they found with their components and gun, and differ quite a bit from what your gun and your mix of components produces.
Pressure signs to watch for (if only there were some that were 100% reliable):
1) compare to factory ammo of the same bullet weight (but, for a very fast for cartridge powder like TG, this may not mean much until you are way over pressure)
2) compare where cases land and where factory cases of same bullet weight lands (but, for a very fast for cartridge powder like TG, this may not mean much until you are way over pressure)
3) compare the expansion bulge about 1/4" above the extractor groove (where the web is thinning out) to what the factory ammo gives you (just a 0.001" increase in the bulge can be quite significant, so measure with micrometer and not calipers). If the case head directly above the extractor groove increase AT ALL, that is generally a sign of dangerous pressure.
4) primers will often flatten, so pay attention; however, in 9mm Luger, I have noticed flattened primers with very light loads with very light recoil that showed no other signs of "pressure." This went away with a 0.2gn increase in powder charge.
If you can't find HS6, you should be looking for Power Pistol, Silhouette, True Blue, WSF, and such.
I tend to choose powders where the range from start to max is at least 1.0gn.
I also always check several sources and start at the lowest start load I can find and work up.
Next, for plated bullets (when I used to try them), I used LEAD bullet data. So, for 9mm Luger and 115gn plated bullet, I show that the ONLY load I have is 3.9gn start and 4.3gn Max, but NRA Precision Pistol shooters have used 2.6-3.4gn for 25 yd line. My data also shows that Rainier P-RN was max at 4.0gn.
So, if I had to use TG, I would start no higher than 3.5gn and work up: say, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, and, maybe, 4.2gn.
Always remember that loads in a manual only tell you what they found with their components and gun, and differ quite a bit from what your gun and your mix of components produces.
Pressure signs to watch for (if only there were some that were 100% reliable):
1) compare to factory ammo of the same bullet weight (but, for a very fast for cartridge powder like TG, this may not mean much until you are way over pressure)
2) compare where cases land and where factory cases of same bullet weight lands (but, for a very fast for cartridge powder like TG, this may not mean much until you are way over pressure)
3) compare the expansion bulge about 1/4" above the extractor groove (where the web is thinning out) to what the factory ammo gives you (just a 0.001" increase in the bulge can be quite significant, so measure with micrometer and not calipers). If the case head directly above the extractor groove increase AT ALL, that is generally a sign of dangerous pressure.
4) primers will often flatten, so pay attention; however, in 9mm Luger, I have noticed flattened primers with very light loads with very light recoil that showed no other signs of "pressure." This went away with a 0.2gn increase in powder charge.
Last edited:
"TiteGroup in 9mm because it is not well suited to that cartridge"
Can anyone elaborate?
I'll elaborate: It's not true.
Like all propellants, TiteGroup has its "wheelhouse." A lot of loaders get nervy using TG; and putting in the small 9x19 case makes them even more nervy. Fair enough. All loaders have a right to like or not like any propellant.
TiteGroup is fast, spunky, hot burning, unforgiving, etc. Due to all those characteristics, it also tends to have a narrow load window. For some reason, that makes some loaders nervous. Fair enough. Myself, I alleviate this potential problem by staying within the charge weight window.
TiteGroup is also very dense, so it has a low fill rate. Even in the small 9mm case, a double-charge is possible. Some loaders choose propellants based on it not being able to double-charge. Fair enough. Myself, I use TG in 38 Special, and at my charge weights, five charges will fit in the case. I alleviate this potential problem by religiously checking the charge levels in the case before seating the bullet. Forsaking a propellant because of a potential double-charge is just silly IMO.
TiteGroup ignites easily, runs really clean, runs really consistent. It is extremely well suited for plated or jacketed bullets in the lighter range, running at "range practice" levels. To me, that sounds like an excellent choice for 115 grain bullets, in 9mm. And that would be because it IS well suited for 9mm in this type of application.
It's probably worth mentioning that Sierra (Edition 5, 4th printing) lists Titegroup as their "accuracy load" in the 9mm Luger with 115 grain bullets (4.2 grains at 1100 fps). This was based on their results with 18 powders used in that weight group.
Sierra also uses Titegroup with their 125-130 grain bullets. Their accuracy load in this weight group was American Select, which happens to be right after Titegroup on Hodgdon's burn rate chart (i.e. both are fast powders).
Nosler uses Titegroup for their 124 grain bullets.
The Speer manual (#14) uses Titegroup with their 115 and 124 grain bullets.
Just an FYI for those who might think that Titegroup and fast powders are not useful in the 9mm Luger. Not everyone, including bullet manufacturers, would agree with that opinion.
Sierra also uses Titegroup with their 125-130 grain bullets. Their accuracy load in this weight group was American Select, which happens to be right after Titegroup on Hodgdon's burn rate chart (i.e. both are fast powders).
Nosler uses Titegroup for their 124 grain bullets.
The Speer manual (#14) uses Titegroup with their 115 and 124 grain bullets.
Just an FYI for those who might think that Titegroup and fast powders are not useful in the 9mm Luger. Not everyone, including bullet manufacturers, would agree with that opinion.
One up side of TG, one 1lb can goes a bit farther than hs6.
3.7gr TG / 7000gr (1lb) = 1891.8 charges per lb
6.2gr HS6 / 7000gr = 1129.0 charges per lb
762 more bangs for the buck so to speak. For plinking ammo that's a couple more range days per pound. I think I would need a chronograph to truly work up a load and have some idea of pressures. 3.7 was accurate and well in the safe charge weight. Bullet was going fast enough punch paper, enough pressure to cycle the pistols... looks like I have at least 1800 more to load before trying something else. I'm headed over to the turret to see how well it meters, let you all know my thoughts in a bit. As always thanks for the input guys. Its nice to have a forum to discus such things and get others opinions.
3.7gr TG / 7000gr (1lb) = 1891.8 charges per lb
6.2gr HS6 / 7000gr = 1129.0 charges per lb
762 more bangs for the buck so to speak. For plinking ammo that's a couple more range days per pound. I think I would need a chronograph to truly work up a load and have some idea of pressures. 3.7 was accurate and well in the safe charge weight. Bullet was going fast enough punch paper, enough pressure to cycle the pistols... looks like I have at least 1800 more to load before trying something else. I'm headed over to the turret to see how well it meters, let you all know my thoughts in a bit. As always thanks for the input guys. Its nice to have a forum to discus such things and get others opinions.
"TiteGroup will work but there are better choices in 9mm."
What is the current preferred go to powder/bullet combo for an auto loading pistol (9x19 - 9mm luger - 9mm parabellum)? If we were to survey 100 shooters / reloaders, you would think their would be some % of the response's that would gravitate towards a commonality.
Blasting?
Target?
Competition?
Duty?
Carry?
What is the current preferred go to powder/bullet combo for an auto loading pistol (9x19 - 9mm luger - 9mm parabellum)? If we were to survey 100 shooters / reloaders, you would think their would be some % of the response's that would gravitate towards a commonality.
Blasting?
Target?
Competition?
Duty?
Carry?
X-tream 115gr rn .355", seated to 1.100
CCI SPP 500
tight group
10 @:
3.7gr
3.8gr
3.9gr
4.0gr
4.1gr - max in hornady book
Yet the on-line data shows a min of 4.5 and a a max of 4.8 for jacketed and a min of 3.9 and 4.3 for lead; plated goes mid jacketed