9mm and the Navy SEALS

[Badger Arms]

C'mon. Those 9mm guys crack me up. They constantly claim their gun is equal to the 45. It's like saying, "Yeah, it's just like the Honda Accord." Well, why don't you just buy the Honda then? Good Question.

The 45 is superior. A Fleck of paint travelling at orbital velocity packs the punch of a 458 Magnum but will vaporize when it hits .050" Aluminum on a space ship. Does that mean we should all be shooting flecks of paint? For FMJ loadings where expansion is not a factor, the 45 starts out with nearly twice the frontal area that the 9mm starts out with. and nearly twice the mass traveling at enough velocity for reliable through-and-through penetratioins. This means that the round will penetrate through a body and deposit its energy over a wider frontal area and all in the target.

I'm tired of you 'mm' guys touting the 9mm as the hottest, best thing on the market and the equal of the 45. The bottom line is that it's a light recoiling, accurate, easy gun to shoot and you can spray-and-pray. Why don't you just use that argument? I like the 9mm too. It's the greatest little pocket-pistol round to come along since the 22lr.

The fact is, it takes much more time and expense to arm an organization with the 45. You have to train them more, you have to spend more time eliminating flinch, and you pay more for the guns and ammo. It's also heavier and too many pansies out there cry when it kicks too much. It's the economics that push the 9mm on to most departments, not the 'superiority.'

Here's a good one, if you had to choose, would you be shot with a 9mm or a 45?

 

[Daymon]

Marksmanship and combat are two totaly different creatures. Paper targets don't shoot back. Most military services don't consider the pistol to be their primary weapon, and their training reflects that. I carried the M9 in the Coast Guard and I currently carry the Beretta .40 DAO in the Border Patrol. Beretta's reliability is average at best, but the worst thing about these guns is that they have a trigger pull a mile long. My personal favorite is still my Sig P229. Can 9mm ball ammo stop a person? Yes, eventually. Will a larger calibre especialy a hollow point do it better? Of course!

 

[AlexGRT]

Just came across this old post and thought I would respond. The BEST shooters in the military are the instructors. They should be, that's their main purpose. Combat shooting and target shooting are different. Do you believe a lot of those bullseye shooters can come close to the level of most SpecOPs personel when they have ran x distance, cold, hungry, miserable, bullets flying, etc. SEALS can't shoot, most of the times when NEW SEALs go to schools run by other branches, they are FRESH. They don't teach marksmanship courses in basic to the Navy. Right off the bat they're going to be lower. I know of Force Recon Marines who scoff at the new SEAL recruits they have to train, SEALs don't think highly of others coming into their dive school, Rangers think SEAls should keep playing in the sand, etc. Don't expect me to believe that the average grunt who shoots on average 3xs a year can outshoot an average SpecOP personel. I have shot with a few and I was amazed at their speed and accuracy. There will always be a better shooter than __________. I believe most Police Officers shoot more than military personel(range wise), and I have seen a few PO shoot. Most did not impress me compared to Elite soldiers I have shot with. That does not mean that there aren't excellent PO shooters that can run the clocks of Elites. If I was a shooting instructor, you better believe I would be great at it. I would dedicate myself on learning my craft.

 

[Hard Ball]

I seem to remember that when the SEALs were first issued (mm M9 Berettas slide failures caused them to say:

"you're not a real SEAL until you have eaten Italian steel!"

 

[Thumper]

James Montes...Amen and amen. I'm a former soldier and I used to be more than a little misguided myself. My Army buddies and I considered ourselves to be the be-all, end-all when it came to a scrap. Due to the nature of our job, we were always TDY together and we fought a bunch of folks in bars around the country (and others, too). In other words, we were young and stupid. But don't let anybody lie to you: Some of those SEALs can fight...we never lost to any group of military guys (quite a few draws, though). One night, however, we had our asses absolutely HANDED TO US by a bunch of rugby players in Statesborough, GA. Those guys were tough...But I digress. What I wrote to say was that I became buddies with a couple of those SEALS, and to this day, they'll tell you that they never really became proficient with a handgun 'til they started shooting as civilians.

 

[BrokenArrow]

FYI/FWIW the SEALS purchased about 2500 new SIG P226s and 1500 new Beretta 92s in 1999, all in 9mm. The Berettas were the heavier slide Brigadier models. I think the SIGs had the new heavier stainless steel slides too.

The Mk23 Mod O is a special purpose weapon, was never intended for general use/issue to everybody on a team. It is still in service/use, even if not very popular.

I did a joint exercise w SEALS once, and they all had HK USPs! Have seen USAF pilots and Navy NIS folks w Glock 19s too! Go figure?

[Edited by BrokenArrow on 12-21-2000 at 03:08 AM]

 

[Phillip]

Ummm.....what was the point of this thread again?

 

[DAKODAKID]

A fellow executive that I work with was a SEAL
in Nam.
His attitude is that beyond 50' use a rifle and
for pistol shooting if you can hit a pie plate
under all conditions at all ranges up to 50'
then you have a kill.(like the old Nevada Smith
movie)
He used a S&W .41 magnum in Nam and says it is
not the cartridge but the person behind the pistol.
Placement-Placement-Placement!!!

BTW he thinks my Crew served MK23 is a joke, but
it is the most accurate handgun I (or my petite wife)
has ever shot.
Most target shooters would probably have a hard time
shooting in real life combat according to me friend.
Makes sense......

 

[MTAA]

"The reason that the Army adopted it is because they were hiring suburb-punks who's only exposure to guns came from 'Duck Hunt' on their Nintendos. They have never done a lick of hard work in their lives and a 1911 was 'too heavy' and 'kicked' too hard for them."

Ahh, I had been waiting for the rational explanation... , someone bitter about being old ?

 

[8200 rpm]

Those 9mm vs. 45ACP guys crack me up.

People, people... It's PENETRATION and SHOT PLACEMENT, that is all!

Your brainstem can't tell the difference between a .355 cal bullet, a .400 cal bullet, and a .450 cal bullet. If it gets severed, you will fall.

Your aorta doesn't know the difference between a .355 cal bullet, a .400 cal bullet, and a .450 cal bullet. If it gets ruptured, you will fall within a few seconds.

Whatever your bullet diameter, get it placed and get it thru! That's why fangibles are a poor bet.

BTW, I own a SIG P226 9mm and a 1911 .45ACP. No bias here.

 

[mcshot]

As an old Air Force CS I only know I don't want to get shot with one by anybody.

 

[Matt VDW]

Most target shooters would probably have a hard time
shooting in real life combat according to me friend.
Makes sense......

Just about everyone has a hard time shooting in real life combat.