7.92mm Anti-Tank rifle

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BlueTrain

New member
Here's a topic I haven't seen mention of lately: the German 7.92mm anti-tank rifle.

Fifty caliber rifles for sniping and such like are all the rage now and actually on issue in the armed forces. There was a period just before and in the early years of WWII when anti-tank rifles had some practical value, although I guess no one thought of using them for sniping. I have actually seen a Boys anti-tank rifle in use at a range here in Virginia, though I've not seen any of the more recent .50-caliber models.

Has anyone ever seen a WWII German 7.92mm anti-tank rifle outside of a museum? Granted, the ammuntion would all be collectors stuff by now but you never know. The same range (Clark Brothers) actually has a WWI Mauser anti-tank rifle but the WWII model was different and had a completely different design.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Outside of a museum?

No.

Actually handling the things when I worked for the Pennsylvnaia State Historical and Museum Commission?

Yes.
 
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BlueTrain

New member
Wow! I didn't think I'd get any response to this one. Surprising any survived the war but I was surprised to see the Boys anti-tanl rifle in use at Clark Brothers.
 
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nbkky71

New member
Those rifles are pretty rare. I've never seen one myself, but I'd wager that a museum will be about the only place that you'd find one.

On a side note, the ammo used by this AT rifle was not your standad 7.92mm rifle round. It was a 7.92x94mm round.

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Limeyfellow

New member
The Royal Armouries in Leeds has one if I remember correctly. I fired the Boyes once or twice though at a ww2 re-enactment. Loud, massive recoil and helluva fun.
 
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BlueTrain

New member
I was certainly aware that it used a cartridge much different from the normal rifle round. There were in fact a fair number of these large sized anti-tank rifle cartridges developed during this period. I guess they all qualifiy as small arms.

Lest you think they weren't very effective, the Polish Army used the same rifle, along with a number of small anti-tank guns when the Germans invaded and they accounted for a large number of German tank losses. It doesn't look like they would work, given the caliber, but they evidently did. In fact, the APDS round from a 120mm US Army tank gun has a penetrating projectile of less than two inches.

One re-enacting group has a PIAT mortar but I doubt they have ever discharged it.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Quite a few Boys rifles were sold commercially in the US after WW II as surplus. Once the ammo began to dry up many were converted to .50 BMG.

The Germans also had during WW I a 13mm anti-tank round, the TuFF or something like that, that proved to be the impetus for the .50 BMG round.
 
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Moloch

New member
Does the 7.92mm AT rifle have 12 million foot pounds of energy?
Click to expand...

I think I read something about that round, as far as I can remember it shot a 7.92mm projectile 220 grain @ 4500fps (or more?) or something like that. :confused:

Dont count on that.
 
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Bender711

New member
4500FPS? thats IN_SANE!! Hitting person with that wold be like that time I shot a squirrel with buck shot from 10 ft.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
You're right, 4,500 FPS is insane, and only about 1,000 fps too fast.

The 7.92x94 round kicked a 220-gr. bullet out at approx. 3,500 fps.


Just after WW I the Polish army began development of their own 7.92 round, the Maroszek, which had a 107mm-long case.

Bullet weight and muzzle velocity were roughly the same. The rifle was largely a rehash of the WW I German anti-tank rifle - a huge bolt action.

Not many of the German WW II anti-tank rifles survived the war simply because they became obsolete so quickly. Most were either discarded when the bullets failed to have any effect, or were withdrawn. Some were converted into short-barreled grenade launchers, but were almost equally useless.
 
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Rustic

New member
Didn't the Germans also develop a squeeze-bore AT gun that reduced the bore diameter and thus developed very high muzzle velocities?

Can't remember the make, and it apparently didn't live up to expectations, but the Germans weren't afraid to try something new or dust off old ideas for new purposes.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
anti tank rifles

Anti tank rifles were a practical reality at one time. Many of the tanks designed during the 20's and early 30's had only 10-12mm of armor in their more vulnerable spots. By 1939, the Germans had a main battle tank with 30mm armor all around, but their lighter tanks were not so well protected.

The majority of the Allied tanks at the beginning of the war were older, less heavily armored obsolescent designs. There were a few heavily armored designs, even one with 80mm of frontal armor, but these were not in service in large numbers during the first year of the war. Even as late as 1941 the Soviets fielded thousands of obsolete lightly armored tanks in their initial efforts to stop the Nazi invasion.

Although somewhat effective early in the war, the uparmoring of tank design rapidly rendered rifle caliber anti tank rifles ineffective. Heavier caliber (.50, .60, etc.) ejoyed limited success for a longer period of time, but eventually became useless against main battle tanks. Quite a few remained in service in different armies, as they were very useful against the more lightly armored cars and halftracks, and of course, unarmored trucks, etc. Kind of like what we are using the .50 cal rifles for today.

The Germans did develope "taper bore" or "squeeze bore" weapons, which produced much higher velocities than conventional guns. They did work, and rather well. However, the main body of the projectile was made of tungsten, and the priorities of the war meant that the limited supplies of tungsten were used for other, more important, things, so the ammo for the squeeze bore guns was always in short supply.

Interestingly, today, we use sabot rounds to achieve the same kind of effect the Germans were looking for with their "squeeze bore" design.
 
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gunslinger555

New member
i saw one in when i was living in westerville (suberb of columbus) at gunshop called aumillers it was converted to fire the .50 bmg he had it for sale i think it was 7k
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
"Didn't the Germans also develop a squeeze-bore AT gun that reduced the bore diameter and thus developed very high muzzle velocities?"

Yes. The 28mm Schweres Panzerbusche 41.

It tapered from 28mm to 20mm at the bore.

This gun DID reach the 4,500 fps mark.

There was another taper bore gun in service with the German Army, the 42mm (down to 30mm) Panzerjagerkanon 41.

Same principle, with a muzzle velocity of around 4,100 fps.

Neither was used extensively, and although they were effective in the early days, they were greatly hampered by lack of suitable material that could serve as a penetrator without shattering at the high velocities the guns generated.
 
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Moloch

New member
What do you guys think about our prototype anti material rifle, the Steyr AMR/ AMR 5075 15,2mm?

iws2000.gif


steyr_amm.jpg

.308win and 15,2mm AMR (.598 cal)

Its shoots a 308 grain tungsten ''dart'' at whoopin' 4750 fps...:eek:
I dont know any projectile going faster in a rifle than the 15,2mm does.:D Sounds to be much more fun than a .50bmg...
 
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BlueTrain

New member
Now we're getting somewhere. How much does this thing weigh? Is it any better than those 20mm anti-tank rifles that were on the market about 45 years ago?
 
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Moloch

New member
It weighs about 18 kilograms as far as I know, so it defnitely is better than any 20mm tank rifle weighing 28kg+ ;so you can still shoulder and carry the Steyr AMR. :)

I just wanted to throw in something interesting.

But I still prefer the 14,5mm PTRD as ultimate anti tank rifle. :D
 
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