7.62×25mm Tokarev

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44 AMP

Staff
alleged/allegedly, like most others are useful words, until they are misunderstood, or misused. Something the people writing copy for the media seem to do on a regular basis. Particularly putting the word alleged in the wrong place in the sentence to be grammatically correct.

And like other things, this can be carried too far. "alleged shooter" is a valid term, because legally no one is guilty until they have their day in court and the court finds them guilty. But I don't think using that term is proper when the facts speak for themselves. Calling someone an alleged shooter when they are shot dead at the scene with multiple witnesses who saw them do it just isn't the right thing to do. But some will call them "alleged" and forever they will be "alleged shooters" because, being dead, they don't get convicted in court..so. to some, "there's no proof", meaning, no legal court finding.

back to the Tokarev round, and "proof"....

Allegedly, I went to Wikipedia site last week, and found them listing a 7.62 Tokarev loading that had a 71gr tracer bullet and a velocity of over 1700fps....

However, there's no proof that I went to Wiki, and no proof that what I saw there was real, or even that it will be there today...

so, you may remain comfortable in the certainty that such a thing was never done, because I don't have proof, and won't provide what I don't have...:rolleyes:
 
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74A95

New member
Mike Irwin said:
You really don't understand what the word alleged means, do you?
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You really don't understand what the word evidence means, do you?

You've made several claims that need supporting evidence. I do question your claim that . . . "Soviet propellant science remained significantly behind the West in its capabilities until well after World War II, both in manufacturing methods and in varieties.

With little to no domestic consumer market for small arms ammunition in the Soviet Union's powder manufacturing tended to focus on finding a propellant blend that worked well at meeting the specific requirements of a particular cartridge and ended there."

It might be an example of a cartridge that amazingly had it's performance boosted because of new powder technology, but this is worth questioning, especially when the trend has been to keep ballistics the same as the original since that's what the gun's made at the time were capable of handling. To increase power (i.e. recoil) could mean damaging the guns.

In any case, if your claim is true, there must be evidence to support it.
 
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74A95

New member
@Mike Irwin

You completely missed the point that your “1600 fps with a lighter bullet” is no big deal. As I showed, current ammo does 1600+ fps with a standard weight bullet in a shorter barrel.

“Alleged” has nothing to do with this. Instead of acknowledging that 1600 fps is no big deal after all, you go on the attack with somehow focusing on the word alleged like that has meaning here. It doesn’t. It’s irrelevant to the 1600 fps. The point is that 1600 fps is no big deal.

Then you come up with this Russian gunpowder thing. That claim requires evidence, unless you’re going to call that ‘alleged’ too.

Really, if all you can do is turn this into a childish game about the word alleged, which is completely irrelevant, you have a problem.

In summary:
1600 fps is no big deal.
Alleged has no meaning here.
Your claim that improved Russian powder science well after WWII was a cause of improved ballistics over the original cartridge requires evidence, because what you’re claiming here is a matter of fact. If you can’t provide evidence, there is no reason to believe you. (Hitchens’s razor)
 
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Drm50

New member
Didn’t Mauser make a 9mm Export by blowing out 7.63 Mauser? Supposedly called for heavier cartridge by African colonization at the time.
 
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74A95

New member
@Mike Irwin

Where does it specifically identify the changes in the ballistics of the 7.62x25 Tokarev, because there's nothing in the links you posted?
 
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Unkl Chuck

New member
Mauser did produce a 9mm Mauser aka 9X25 Mauser (Export) that had a case about 1.79mm longer (24.9 mm) than the 9mm Largo (9X23 Largo) with a 23.11mm case. The Largo is still around though relatively rare. The Mauser 9mm was not a big success and is quite scarce.
For what it's worth, there are WikiPedia entries on both, but one should always be a tad suspect with Wiki data. I used the Wiki data here and I had researched the 9mm Mauser several years ago and found more information that I did not preserve.
 
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amd6547

New member
Regardless of all the pointless back and forth, I have to say the Tokarev pistol and it’s hot cartridge is one of my favorite handguns. My 1953 Romanian gets some carry duty as a car pistol. Utterly reliable, thin and compact for carry, and I had no problem ringing the 80yd 10” steel plate at the rifle range with that flat shooting bullet.
 
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jmstr

New member
Pathfinder45- I understand what you are saying.

I didn't care for the trigger on mine, so I yanked it apart and gave it a trigger job- like I've done to most of my handguns. Polishing, stoning, adjusting angle ever so slightly, etc.

I was satisfied when the trigger got to about 5lbs and had a clean break.


The only handguns I've had real trouble with getting the pull under a crisp/clean 7lbs were the Husqvarna 1907 [think- more powerful Colt 1903] and the Femaru M37 [which has design influences from the Colt 1903 design].


Considering this topic is regarding Tokarevs, any TT-33 fans who haven't checked it out should compare a Husqvarna 1907 [Swedish licensed FN 1903] and a Colt 1911 to the Tokarev. The Tok clearly has borrowed from both in the design phase, but I really like the unique twist of having the Fire Control Group drop out for work on it outside the frame. Very cool!
 
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ballardw

New member
Pathfinder45 said:
The only Tokarev pistol I ever shot had a horrendously heavy trigger pull.... musta been well into double digit territory.
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Was it a Tokarev design with a safety added?

I shot one of the Norinco Tokarevs with a "safety" that the lever will fall out of the pistol. It will still fire but the trigger pull goes from about 8 pounds to maybe 25.
 
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jmstr

New member
BallardW,

I'm glad to know that. I have seen two main places for the safety- behind the trigger or at the rear side of the pistol.

Behind the trigger is just a trigger stop, so there is no affect on trigger pull.

I hadn't thought of possible issues with the rear safety and how it might affect pull.


BTW, the two handguns I've held with the worst triggers [hands down] were a Nagant revolver and a Makarov. What is it with these Russian handguns and horrible triggers?
 
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Unkl Chuck

New member
My Tok is a late production 'Tokagypt'. I had to do a little gunsmithing when I first got it back in the '90's, polishing, and so forth. Decent shooter, okay trigger, acceptable reliability, not bad considering the source and price. I usually keep it set up for 9mm and it's my 'nightstand' gun. I generally use the 7.62X25 barrel for plinking and shooting factory loads to reload for the brooms.
Taking it to the range, soon.
:)
 
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wild cat mccane

New member
Two points.

Serbian PPU isn't loading a round hotter today than yesteryears for a yesteryears gun. That's just not happening.

Fast in this area matters not a fig. If it went 1,600fps, you are still 1,000fps away from the bottom of rifle level damage.

Super fun gun at the range though. Zippy compared to other normal rounds. The 9mm HST is still going to be better, a 800 FPS 150gr HST is bested by almost none, no matter if PPU made it a magical 1,700FPS with their jacketed hollow point :)
 
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wild cat mccane

New member
Fmj will all fall with each other. .380 to 10mm. Remember the rule that increased speed increases drag, faster. Why a plane double speed gets quad the drag.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
There are three types of drag,
Wake drag, very complex to compute, the turbulence formed behind takes energy
“Pushing” drag, the energy to push stuff aside or ahead, think of a wadcutter as very “pushy” (or expanded hollow point)
Form drag- friction from the side walls. Think “arrow shaft” as the epitome of that.

I’d something doubles in speed, first order pushing drag does sort of follow the square rule. But wake and form drag are major forms, too. Interesting stuff.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Fast in this area matters not a fig. If it went 1,600fps, you are still 1,000fps away from the bottom of rifle level damage.
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This implies that rifles are all 2,600fps or more. is that what you meant??
Or do you mean that rifles slower than 2,600fps don't do "rifle level damage"??

Remember the rule that increased speed increases drag, faster.
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Also remember the rule that increased speed increases energy, faster....
:rolleyes:
 
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