7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

[Nnobby45]

Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.

You just saw why someone would need more than ten rounds-- if you can separate the way things unfolded in reality from the concepts you have about how things should have been after analyzing for thousands of seconds what the officers had seconds, or fractions there of, to deal with.

None of the officers gave any indication they saw the guy in the car. Looks like they just missed him.

The officers, exposed in the open, drew their guns while under fire from a gunman who had the cover of a tree. They stood their ground, fought back and killed the suspect. You might cut 'em a break.

And yes, there were mistakes that were, I'm sure, addressed in training.

Things never turn to crap in our heads---just in the world of reality (with great regularity).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Spats McGee]

Now that is something I cant wait to hear about. Really be nice to assess our assessments! Give us a chance to grade our selves on what we thought was right wrong or whatever.

Actually, I forwarded a link to the video to the Cap'n, not a link to this thread.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Guns & tactics...

I agree with post #38. Stress fear anger etc can cause a rapid change in your hearing, vision, perception of time/distance etc. Author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun press items about the subject.
I'd add that any members who feel they would react a certain way to a LE raid should review the recent incident in central FL of a group of sworn deputies who went to the WRONG address & then shot/killed the home owner who answered the door holding a firearm.
This tragic event ended with the armed citizen dying, the sworn deputies being cleared of all wrong-doing, the Sheriff's Office being sued for wrongful death & the original subject having all his criminal charges dismissed.

ClydeFrog

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Actually, I forwarded a link to the video to the Cap'n, not a link to this thread

.

It would be nice to know. I actually know someone is in LE maybe have him give me some info when he gets time and I run into him again.

Thanks SPATS

 

[Silver00LT]

Those officers are LUCKY. Poorly executed raid. No situation awareness...well lack of proper SA.

Do I feel sorry for that guy being gunned down...no I'm sorry he did not drop his weapon til he got shot in the head...by then it was too late. He chose death over life in prison.

All comes down to a little green plant...amazing what human beings would do for something that is nothing. Well apparently to the shooter...a plant was worth his life.

Hope to see this video used as training aids on what could be done better in future classes. I could sit here and pick this video apart, but I was not there nor am I these officers Commander.

I agree with post #38. Stress fear anger etc can cause a rapid change in your hearing, vision, perception of time/distance etc. Author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun press items about the subject.
I'd add that any members who feel they would react a certain way to a LE raid should review the recent incident in central FL of a group of sworn deputies who went to the WRONG address & then shot/killed the home owner who answered the door holding a firearm.
This tragic event ended with the armed citizen dying, the sworn deputies being cleared of all wrong-doing, the Sheriff's Office being sued for wrongful death & the original subject having all his criminal charges dismissed.

ClydeFrog

For this reason I always ask who it is through my door and answer with no weapons visible.

I hope they each get sued personally.

 

[Spats McGee]

For me, this video really highlights the vagaries of gunfights. It's very easy for me to say "I'll do X, Y or Z," but the reality may be quite different. Those officers have far more training than I, and it still took quite a while (& lots of bullets) to end the fight. The attacker chooses the time & place, and there's a whole lot of luck that plays into it, no matter how much training & trigger time.

 

[Alabama Shooter]

Well apparently to the shooter...a plant was worth his life.

With a street value of almost $200K. I think the money was the motivator.

As an aside:

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed a proclamation which designated May 15th as Peace Officers Memorial Day. Stay safe.

 

[CurlyQ.Howard]

Looking at that video, I believe that all the law enforcement officers were at risk of being shot in the opening seconds, and they were very lucky not to have had that happen (had the gunman been more proficient).

 

[ClydeFrog]

Miami Vice clip....

There is a clip on www.youtube.com of a scene from the 1980s cop drama; Miami Vice where a top match shooter(Im not sure exactly who but one of the big names in the ISPC sport) plays a bad guy & shows how fast a skilled person can draw & shoot.
If you never saw the video, it's a real eye-opener.
Bear, in mind the Miami Vice producers had him draw & fire in real time, no SFX or editing. For you newer shooters, the scene was with a blank firing pistol; no CGI.

CF
EDIT; The Youtube clip with the Miami Vice scene is PACT Timers In Hollywood.

 

[2ndsojourn]

Clyde, your link is to youtube home page.

Is this the clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsKj6RGQ2VM

 

[ClydeFrog]

Yes...

It shows why you should always key into where a subjects hands & feet are.
Trained people can move quickly or be able to do multiple skills quickly.

CF

 

[Silver00LT]

Holy heck at the speed a precision. Let's us HOPE criminals continue to THINK that they know how to shoot

With a street value of almost $200K. I think the money was the motivator.

As an aside:

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed a proclamation which designated May 15th as Peace Officers Memorial Day. Stay safe.

We were RAID til we lost funding(fed cuts) so I know all too well the money involved...I still view it as a green plant that is not worth the trouble of trying to get involved with.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It shows why you should always key into where a subjects hands & feet are.
Trained people can move quickly or be able to do multiple skills quickly.

CF

If you have a suspect in front of you, can you be watching his hands and feet while at the same time still keeping your head on a swivel and watching the whole area around you? No.

This is a problem in defense training. We are taught to watch things like the hands and feet, especially if we think a person is a threat. We are taught to keep our head on a swivel to know what is going on around us all the time. This leaves a conflict of tasks. If you look around, with a brief glance, you might spot an obvious threat around you, but you may also miss the known potential threat's action to harm you. If you don't look around, you may miss things around you, but are on track to either keep your suspect from taking advantage of your head-on-swivel security distraction or reacting faster by being able to see the start of his action. You have to prioritize your threat environment and you can't do everything all the time. If you have an uncontrolled potential threat in front of you, you darned sure can't be stopped and looking inside every vehicle, under them, behind behinds, trees, etc. and looking for other potential threats while still keeping a watch on the known potential threat...unless you have a team. However, the team needs to act as a time and not as a series of individuals. This group of officers acted as a series of individuals and not as a team.

 

[Silver00LT]

If you have a suspect in front of you, can you be watching his hands and feet while at the same time still keeping your head on a swivel and watching the whole area around you? No.

This is a problem in defense training. We are taught to watch things like the hands and feet, especially if we think a person is a threat. We are taught to keep our head on a swivel to know what is going on around us all the time. This leaves a conflict of tasks. If you look around, with a brief glance, you might spot an obvious threat around you, but you may also miss the known potential threat's action to harm you. If you don't look around, you may miss things around you, but are on track to either keep your suspect from taking advantage of your head-on-swivel security distraction or reacting faster by being able to see the start of his action. You have to prioritize your threat environment and you can't do everything all the time. If you have an uncontrolled potential threat in front of you, you darned sure can't be stopped and looking inside every vehicle, under them, behind behinds, trees, etc. and looking for other potential threats while still keeping a watch on the known potential threat...unless you have a team. However, the team needs to act as a time and not as a series of individuals. This group of officers acted as a series of individuals and not as a team.

Agree no matter how much we train. We can not train for every possible scenario, and even if facing multiple threats we are vulnerable even with keeping adequate situation awareness.

The best way to stay alive is to avoid conflict. We train in the event that escape is no longer an option or our personal life is in danger at home.

 

[deepcreek]

To me it seems like they had no search warrant and they were just going to "knock and talk"/bully their way into the place. Which is a very common tactic for narcotics agents.

My take on it is these guys got too used to dealing with people that give in cower in a corner and let them have their way. So they got a wake up call.

Why was back up so far away? Why such a small team? Was this possibly a small rouge team that likes to collect unaccounted for money and drugs for personal gain?

 

[Patriot86]

I totally thought the shooter in the car on the left was an undercover which is why he was ignored. That was a near fatal error not checking the car before trying to conduct the raid.

That's what I thought as well. Just about every SWAT "bust" video I have ever seen on TV the officers visually clear all vehicles on or right near the suspects property. They turned their back on the car without clearing it and the price was a wounded officer. Hopefully LEO's everywhere learn from this and reinforce the importance of clearing vehicles before turning your backs on them.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Was this possibly a small rouge team that likes to collect unaccounted for money and drugs for personal gain?

That's not nice to assume. MDPD doesn't take kindly to any rogue actions and they would have been reprimanded and personally thrown under the bus.

 

[Silver00LT]

It may not be nice to assume that, but you can not rule it out. I have seen entire city police departments shut down for the exact things stated in his comment. Hobson City, Alabama and Piedmont, Alabama are two cities that have been investigated and convicted of drug trafficking. Hobson City does not have a PD anymore. Piedmont had budget cuts and extreme damage control to do.

 

[Evan Thomas]

Just a reminder: the topic of this thread is the actions of officers in this situation. We don't do general cop-bashing here. Also, unless we're able to get more information about why there were so few officers on the scene, and what they were there to do, there's not much point in idle speculation.

 

[Silver00LT]

From the article and video shown...this appears to be a no-knock warrant raid.

Which in my opinion should be barred and illegal. As of 2005 there were over 50k of these conducted.