7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

[Spats McGee]

I dont know enough about tactics and training to really critique what the various parties to this shootout did, but it's certainly educational. This is about a 15 minute video, showing the gunfight from different camera angles. It's not that often that we get more than one camera angle on the same gunfight.

Setup: Police show up to arrest Man #1, and Man #2 pops out of a parked car and starts shooting.

Some things that I noticed:

Man #2 had a little time before police drew on him.

Man #2 takes at least two hits, and stays in the fight. It's not until he takes a head shot that he goes down. And while the head shot rang his bell, it didn't kill him immediately.

Body armor helps. I think the cop on the right took one in the vest and one in the leg.

The bad guy took several hits and stayed up and fighting. You can even see blood on his shirt, and he hops around on one leg.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/09/3389013/video-depicts-wild-shootout-that.html

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

C'mon guys, you know better than that.

:|

 

[Alabama Shooter]

I totally thought the shooter in the car on the left was an undercover which is why he was ignored. That was a near fatal error not checking the car before trying to conduct the raid.

The raid itself was done exceptionally poorly too. I won't critique it because I am not that familiar with how LEO's do raids but that would have been considered a catastrophic failure in tactics if it had been a military raid.


ETA:
It looked to me like man#2 took four hits not three: 2 X torso, 1X leg, 1X Head.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

MDPD units such as the one who conducted this investigation are usually very thorough and they're supposed to have everybody in the vicinity in question under direct supervision and in some cases such as this one, even restrained. They weren't watching their 6 for whatever reason. Then this nut bag got the drop on them.

My first comment, I apply that again. They know better than that. There was probably an informant involved that isn't mentioned in the story. It happens here a lot, getting too comfortable.

 

[Alabama Shooter]

getting too comfortable

As I would say before every mission, "complacency kills".

 

[Nittespanker]

A raid with 3 guys with pistols?
Here they would have sent a team of 10 with short barreled rifles and it would have been over real quick. The cars would have been cleared on the way to the door and part of the team would have provided cover facing the street.

Add:
After clicking on the "full story" it is reported that one detective was shot 3 times in the stomach.
And this was not a raid,it was a "knock and talk" attempt to get the suspects to consent to a search of the home.

 

[Alabama Shooter]

I saw four police officers not three. They did not look like they were asking permission for anything. They tried to grab the dude as soon as he was in sight. It was not a raid, but it was not a simple knock and ask either.

 

[Gbro]

To me it showed how little that shooter cared about living! to start a gunfight like he did was suicide by cop IMO.
The perimeter security was very poor having a vehicle drive right through the hot zone was hard to believe.
I kept waiting to see the downed shooter get that gun back in his hand, don't know what could have been done to prevent it in this shoot other than to move it with a couple well placed shots with the M-4.
Hard to believe he traded a BMW for a body bag!

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I get the sinking feeling this turns into one of the many training videos used for future training.

You can definately see the mistakes made, but the training and vests saved the day.

 

[Nittespanker]

I saw four police officers not three. They did not look like they were asking permission for anything. They tried to grab the dude as soon as he was in sight. It was not a raid, but it was not a simple knock and ask either.

The fourth cop got to the party a bit late in the red pickup.
If you click on the link "full story" it CLAIMS it was a "knock and talk".
But to me it looked like an amateur drug raid.
One of the officers took 3 hits to the stomach the full story said. He is still recovering and not currently back on duty. Sounds like he almost died.
The dope dealer who was arrested was charged with the other dope dealers that died murder that the cops shot and killed. He is claiming they thought it was other criminals acting as police.

 

[Seaman]

Good to know the cop recovered.

Basic fighting smarts 101.

Check your 6.

 

[garryc]

Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.

You cannot have too much ammo when you are defending yourself

 

[nhbmaing]

It's rare to see something like this in real time from several angles. That guy made a very poor decision by opening up on those cops. The cops were also lucky only the perp died. That could've gotten a lot more hairy than it already was!

 

[peacefulgary]

Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.

You cannot have too much ammo when you are defending yourself

Just think of where all those missed shots landed....

If the criminals don't get you the cops will.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Cool link.

Man #2 had a little time before police drew on him.

Man #2 takes at least two hits, and stays in the fight. It's not until he takes a head shot that he goes down. And while the head shot rang his bell, it didn't kill him immediately.

Body armor helps. I think the cop on the right took one in the vest and one in the leg.

I believe the suspect was hit at least three times before the head shot. Once in the leg (hopping, won't put weight on it), once in the torse (red dot appearing between shoulder blades), and once in the side/gut (another possible through and through).

The cop was hit 3 times in the gut as per the article.

Delgado pops out of the BMW, gun in hand and starts firing at the officers. Saavedra, a few feet away, returns fire, stumbling away off screen. He has taken three shots to the stomach.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/09/3389013_p2/video-depicts-wild-shootout-that.html#storylink=cpy

I know folks are critical of the cops for not checking the cars. Got it. I would take a slightly different perspective on that. They can't check everywhere all the time and I have never seen a vid where the cops check every nook and cranny, vehicle, treehouse, shed, etc. BEFORE dealing with their primary area of concern and to do so would often eliminate the element of surprise they hope to enjoy via the circumstances, whether they be an actual raid or an aggressive stop and knock.

The failing I see, however, is that when Estevanell did his little maneuver to try to escape, he drew 100% of the cops' attention even after he was physically being handled by the cops (not yet cuffed, but controlled). The first two cops have him and the third is casually walking up to assist. He is the only one really unencumbered at this point and he does not exercise any situational awareness to make sure they are safe. I know he is en route to assist the other cops, but given the circumstance, he is the only one who has the opportunity to check their surroundings and make sure nothing is going on, even if he is just watching the house for other suspects to come out (most likely scenario).

It still took street cops over 6 minutes to arrive after the shooting started (and I assuming the late arriving Cop #4 in the truck was calling it in)

 

[Nittespanker]

Cop number 1 that strolls up to the door is lucky he did not get shot point blank by the dope dealer in the car. If that would have took place the other dealer in the residence could have armed himself or took an offensive position with a weapon of superior firepower Than the police and this would have put the police in a very difficult situation.
With one shooter in the car and another in the house firing with an m4 or similar weapon the initial assault team would have suffered a loss.

This was the case back in the 80's when the FBI conducted a raid in a suburb of Miami I believe it was Homestead.

A 10 man team would have a psychological effect along with a physical effect if the dope dealers wanted to fight.

It's obvious that these dope dealers were underestimated by the informant and in turn by the police.

Thankfully no police lost their lives that day.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I know folks are critical of the cops for not checking the cars. Got it. I would take a slightly different perspective on that. They can't check everywhere all the time and I have never seen a vid where the cops check every nook and cranny, vehicle, treehouse, shed, etc.

Personally, I would not choose the word critical. There were obvious mistakes made that police themselves are sure to point out to future trainees or as a review into the shooting.

The fact is that training only go's so far in assuring Police make the right choices in a given scenario.

What appears obvious was that the first three Officers that showed up appeared to have had tunnel vision. No one appeared to be looking out for outside threats like flank or 6 o'clock.

Situational awareness when approaching a home even for a knock and talk, is standard protocol, and for at least one officer to check for outside threats.

Anytime there is even two officers that show up at a home, notice how one will engage in the conversation while the other stays back observing. They will look left and right and at the person holding the conversation. They are looking for possible threats, for someone approaching, etc.

If you have never seen it, watch an episode or two of COPS. Observe how they approach a home or a person when they are attempting to communicate with someone for information or details to an event.

Even if they had covered their flanks, they still may have missed the guy in the car, but more likely they would have seen him than not IMO.

 

[Evan Thomas]

I noticed that that the first car to arrive, the white one that backed out of a spot on the other side of the street, appeared to have a line of sight to the BMW while the first man was getting into it. Perhaps the angle isn't what it appears to be, but how did they not see him coming out of the house before they approached it?

 

[Jimboh247]

Did anyone notice that it took backup 6 1/2 minutes to get there! From the first shot fired until the marked cars showed up. And this is a police involved shooting! Just imagine how long it would be with a regular citizen.

 

[silvrjeepr]

I believe this was anything but a "knock and talk". There's no reason for multiple unmarked cars to converge quickly unless it was some type of bust or arrest attempt. My guess is the department labeled this as such rather than admit this was a poorly executed bust.

Given the number of vehicles in the drive way, these guys are extremely fortunate that no one else joined in the fight from another vehicle or the house.

The officer on the right is lucky to be alive at all. His first nearly fatal mistake was not looking to his right as he passed the car. Second, he steps right into the open in front of the shooter as the shooting starts. He should also be reprimanded for his inability to control his weapon. The two shots at the ground, one of them while he was tuned the other direction were a danger to everyone. Another 20 degrees and he would have sent that round towards the officer on the left.

Now for the biggie. Notice what happens to the guy being held. When the shooting starts, he is released and ignored. He goes between the vehicles and to the right away from all three officers. Had he decided to draw a gun at that point, things would have ended very badly. The middle officer who released him and turned his attention towards the active shooter is lucky to be alive also.

Looks like this was a best case scenario for these officers to make it home that day. Had one or two details changed, this story would have a different outcome by my untrained eye.