5-Inch, 38-Caliber Naval Rifle
- Thread starter Jeff Thomas
- Start date
You gotta be a naval buff...
To know that the 5" 38 caliber DP (dual purpose) rifle is the standard armament of our destroyers during WW II. It also served as the secondary armament aboard our cruisers (light & heavy) and aboard our later battleships. Even our Iowa class featured 20 of them with 5 dual gun turrets on port & starboard.
The earlier battleships of WW II carried a 5"/25 cal rifle. On some of these ships, they were replaced when rebuilt/refitted.
The Naval Institute Press use to print an excellant book on naval armament of WW II. Unfortunately, it's been out of print for years. It may be in your local library.
To know that the 5" 38 caliber DP (dual purpose) rifle is the standard armament of our destroyers during WW II. It also served as the secondary armament aboard our cruisers (light & heavy) and aboard our later battleships. Even our Iowa class featured 20 of them with 5 dual gun turrets on port & starboard.
The earlier battleships of WW II carried a 5"/25 cal rifle. On some of these ships, they were replaced when rebuilt/refitted.
The Naval Institute Press use to print an excellant book on naval armament of WW II. Unfortunately, it's been out of print for years. It may be in your local library.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Gary,
The 5"/38 formed the main armament for 1 light cruiser class during WW II -- the Atlantas.
They were armed with 16 guns mounted in 8 double turrets, 6 on the centerline (3 forward superfiring, 3 aft superfiring), and two wing turrets just ahead of the aft centerline turrets.
Only 4 Atlanta-class cruisers were built:
Atlanta - Lost during sea battles around Guadalcanal.
Juneau - Lost in the same action as Atlanta, taking the 5 Sullivan Brothers with her.
San Diego - Scrapped in 1960.
San Juan - Scrapped in 1961.
During the war the two survivors were reclassified as Ligh Anti-Aircraft Cruisers.
I'm certain that had the VT Proximity fuse been available earlier, when these ships were in design, more would have been constructed simply for anti-air use.
The 5"/38 formed the main armament for 1 light cruiser class during WW II -- the Atlantas.
They were armed with 16 guns mounted in 8 double turrets, 6 on the centerline (3 forward superfiring, 3 aft superfiring), and two wing turrets just ahead of the aft centerline turrets.
Only 4 Atlanta-class cruisers were built:
Atlanta - Lost during sea battles around Guadalcanal.
Juneau - Lost in the same action as Atlanta, taking the 5 Sullivan Brothers with her.
San Diego - Scrapped in 1960.
San Juan - Scrapped in 1961.
During the war the two survivors were reclassified as Ligh Anti-Aircraft Cruisers.
I'm certain that had the VT Proximity fuse been available earlier, when these ships were in design, more would have been constructed simply for anti-air use.
Hi Mike,
You're right about the Atlanta class cruisers (and their subclass, Oakland?) having the 5/38" as their main armament. When I think about it, I'm not sure about the Omaha class even having 5/38" on board. May have to check Conway's or Friedman later on.
Remember the Sullivan Bros! BTW, can you name the four brothers who were on board for a while with the Sullivans on the Juneau?
Gary
You're right about the Atlanta class cruisers (and their subclass, Oakland?) having the 5/38" as their main armament. When I think about it, I'm not sure about the Omaha class even having 5/38" on board. May have to check Conway's or Friedman later on.
Remember the Sullivan Bros! BTW, can you name the four brothers who were on board for a while with the Sullivans on the Juneau?
Gary
There are were two types of 5x54 in the US Navy, the Mk 42 and Mk 45. The Mk 45 is only one remaining system on active duty. It fully automatic (unmanned) has a ROF between 16 and 20 RPMs, but only has 1 20 round drum magazine at the ready per mount. The older Mk 42 was semi automatic with a crew of three in the mount, it had a 28 RPM ROF and two 20 round drums at the ready. The current plan is to retrofit 62 caliber tubes and new feed mechanisms to the Mk 45 mount starting next FY. But I don't think that plan is on schedule because the ERGM round specifically for the 5x62 has yet to be perfected.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OH CRAP!
I forgot TOTALLY about the Oakland and Juneau class cruisers. Sigh...
OK, Oaklands (Oakland, Reno, Flint & Tucson) had 12 5"/38s in 6 turrets, doing away with the wing turrets.
The Juneau class (Juneau, Spokane and Fresno) also had 12 5"/38s.
All told, 11 light cruisers armed exclusively with the 5"/38s as the main armaments.
I forgot TOTALLY about the Oakland and Juneau class cruisers. Sigh...
OK, Oaklands (Oakland, Reno, Flint & Tucson) had 12 5"/38s in 6 turrets, doing away with the wing turrets.
The Juneau class (Juneau, Spokane and Fresno) also had 12 5"/38s.
All told, 11 light cruisers armed exclusively with the 5"/38s as the main armaments.
Mike Irwin
Staff
STLRN,
There was actually a 3rd class of 5"/54, the Mark 16, that was originally designed as a lengthened barrel 5"/38 and was originally destined for the Montana-class battleships and was used on the Midway-class carriers.
In carrier use it was a single-mount gun, while the planned mounts for the Montanas were dual mounts.
It wasn't considered to be nearly as effecive, as it didn't have power ammo handling, and caused a lot of crew fatigue due to the large components.
Interestingly, the Mark 16 barrels were used on the later Mark 42 mountings, and the Mark 16 mounting was sold to Japan to arm its post-war destroyers.
There was actually a 3rd class of 5"/54, the Mark 16, that was originally designed as a lengthened barrel 5"/38 and was originally destined for the Montana-class battleships and was used on the Midway-class carriers.
In carrier use it was a single-mount gun, while the planned mounts for the Montanas were dual mounts.
It wasn't considered to be nearly as effecive, as it didn't have power ammo handling, and caused a lot of crew fatigue due to the large components.
Interestingly, the Mark 16 barrels were used on the later Mark 42 mountings, and the Mark 16 mounting was sold to Japan to arm its post-war destroyers.
Bruce, please check me if I am wrong, but is not the term gun mount used instead of turret (as on the sixteen inchers on the Iowa class for instance), because the 5 inchers are not armored as the turrets are on the big boys? If I remember correctly is not the "cover" on the gun mounts more of just a splinter shield? Us ole USAF guys tried to put some 5 inchers on the B-52's but damn they would not fit( that 75 fit just fine in the B-25's though 
)! We need the navy to help us out.
)! We need the navy to help us out. In 58 the Midway (CVA 41) had four 5" 54 single tube hand fed mounts on the port side and seven of em on the starbord side. Probably originaly had more on the port side but lost clear space on that side when she was converted to angle deck.
Midway class (41, 42 and 43) probably the toughest carriers ever built by any country.
Sam
Midway class (41, 42 and 43) probably the toughest carriers ever built by any country.
Sam
Mike Irwin
Staff
Carlyle,
Best as I can determine, the Iowa's 5"/38 mounts had 2.5" armor on the face and roof of the turret.
I don't know about the sides.
Best as I can determine, the Iowa's 5"/38 mounts had 2.5" armor on the face and roof of the turret.
I don't know about the sides.
Apparently the term turret was used for the 16-inch guns, and gun mount was used for the 5-inch guns. Both terms denoted the complete assemblies; i.e. gun house, barbette, rotating structure, etc.
The barbette is the armored cylinder that extends down into the hull. It is fixed.
The rotating structure sits inside the barbette.
The gun house is the armored box that sits atop the rotating structure. It contains the guns and slide assemblies.
All this is from IOWA CLASS BATTLESHIPS, by Robert F. Sumrall.
The barbette is the armored cylinder that extends down into the hull. It is fixed.
The rotating structure sits inside the barbette.
The gun house is the armored box that sits atop the rotating structure. It contains the guns and slide assemblies.
All this is from IOWA CLASS BATTLESHIPS, by Robert F. Sumrall.
LoneStranger
New member
Was on a TinCan from Aug69 to Oct72. While I worked out of the IC/FC room as an IC whenever we were going to shoot I was in Repair3 and I got to watch for things breaking when we went Boom Boom.
Somehow they never fired our guns without letting us know.
One of the esoteric facts about the 5"38 is that it could not traverse fast enough if an aircraft went faster than 600mph. I been given to understand that problem was corrected when they went to the 3"50 and the 5"54.
Was in a discussion one night with a Vietnam Chopper crewman and he said that you could always tell the Navy people because they were the only ones to use the calibre of a weapon.
As for my two most inspiring moment in relation to these weapons, first was the day I went into the handling room and smelled a fire. Second, was when they pulled two mounts out of another destroyer, set them down at the head of the pier and proceeding to lose track of them for several months.
Ahh such fun times.
Somehow they never fired our guns without letting us know.
One of the esoteric facts about the 5"38 is that it could not traverse fast enough if an aircraft went faster than 600mph. I been given to understand that problem was corrected when they went to the 3"50 and the 5"54.
Was in a discussion one night with a Vietnam Chopper crewman and he said that you could always tell the Navy people because they were the only ones to use the calibre of a weapon.
As for my two most inspiring moment in relation to these weapons, first was the day I went into the handling room and smelled a fire. Second, was when they pulled two mounts out of another destroyer, set them down at the head of the pier and proceeding to lose track of them for several months.
Ahh such fun times.
darn that did not keep many going for long. The gunhouse sits on a gun mount. A gun house has no armor and is just a tin box to keep the spray off while a turret has armor. If it has armor it is a turret and sits on a barbette as many seem to know. The probelem with a 5/38 and traverse speed is in 1942 600 mph was a lot slower than a airborne targer would do then. One ship my dad was on had a warped table that the director ran on and would stick and jam due to being along side the Franklin when she blew up. I think that that the old MK-16 used 5 or 6 tv tubes in the director and was a real POS and convinced my uncle to retire after his 20 and stuck with dealing with that on the Forestall. He said he would rather be back at Okinawa than go to sea on that bomb again and shoot the 5/50s and feel silly. The CVA-59 blew up and had a big fire right after he got off and retired.
Ed Brunner
New member
In Field Artillery the classifications of weapons based on the ratio of the bore diameter was mortar, howitzer, gun and rifle. I don't remember the actual ratios, it's too long ago. About the only thing I remember about Field Artillery is "Always tie the horses downwind".
Sam . . . Shipmate . . .
Midway, FDR and Coral Sea were wonderful ships. However, IMHO their "toughness" cannot compare to the armor, the DC capabilities, the mass, the redundant systems, and the vulnerability-placement of the Nimitz Class.
Nostalgia aside -- and I have cruises in all of them since the 27Cs -- the CVN-68 (and newer) are built like a bank vault, starting with the flight deck itself.
With warmest regards -- Roy
Midway, FDR and Coral Sea were wonderful ships. However, IMHO their "toughness" cannot compare to the armor, the DC capabilities, the mass, the redundant systems, and the vulnerability-placement of the Nimitz Class.
Nostalgia aside -- and I have cruises in all of them since the 27Cs -- the CVN-68 (and newer) are built like a bank vault, starting with the flight deck itself.
With warmest regards -- Roy