Ddelange wrote:
Hi everyone.
You are forgetting one important factor: The importance of temporary cavity.
The temporary shock cavity made by the 308 is MUCH bigger than the one made by the 223.
There is no way around physics. Much bigger bullet with more energy do more damage.
Compared to the 223, the 308 has about twice the frontal area and delivers TWICE the amount of energy. If we were talking about pistol rounds or any other round at all, this fact would be enough to settle the matter once and for all, but we are supposed to believe that fragmentation compensates for such an obvious difference in power.
The entire fragmentation point is rather weak.
Think about handgun defensive ammo. Today’s top brands look to retain as much weight as possible, with little fragmentation. Think about the entire concept behind the Gold Dot ammunition. Today, most fragmentation handgun rounds are not considered as good stoppers as it was advertised some years ago.
Why would it work differently on the 223 round?
The reason behind the lack of popularity of fragmentation rounds is that the energy used up on fragmentation on the 223 round is energy that it is not being transferred into the target.
IMO, a larger temporary cavity is MUCH better than a small permanent cavity, since the shock overloads the nervous system, creating the shock required to put the target down at once.
Most American soldiers complain about the 223 performance, some say it does ok but most soldiers that saw a good amount of firefight have bad things to say about it.
Would I wan to get shot with it? No thanks, but that does not change the fact that the 308 is a more powerful round.
I live in Argentina, and we did have more than a few armed conflicts, against the British during the Malvinas war, and locally during the “Dirty War” years.
I’ve never, EVER heard of anyone complaining about the 308 performance, which is still used by our Military, with the FAL. Quite the contrary, the 308 has a long history of efficiency, and the FAL along with the 308 cartridge it fires has embedded fear and respect on men on both ends of the barrel.
Whenever someone points out that 223 is not allowed for hunting deer, they claim “Comparing deer to men is like comparing apples to oranges” I cant help but think “Right, the deer wont be shooting back at me!”
Should the USAF go back to 308?
Heck, I don’t know, they already issue 308 to the designated shooters who are the ones doing the accurate shooting, while 223 is used as suppressive fire.
Besides, today’s army is a mass of different people, big and small, male and female, recoil sensitive and even people that never shot a gun before. They need a light, small round with little recoil. But understanding the need of modern armies does not mean that we should buy that BS about 223 being better than the 308. That’s out right stupidity, and I can’t help but think there are those that want to urinate over our heads and tells us it’s raining due to a political agenda.
They worship fragmentation as if it were the greatest invention since sliced bread, and bash the 308 claiming it will only drill a .30 hole on the human body with no other effect. BS.
Anyone saw the graphics comparing the wound patter of the 223 to the 308? The ones with the “detach muscle” remarks?
Check the inch ruler below and you’ll see they are not in the same scale. The 308 graphic is reduced. Take the time to set them both on the same scale and you’ll see how puny the 223 cavity compares to the 308.
Again, both rounds are capable, it’s just that the 308 is “more” capable than the 223, and stating that you should double tap with it does not make me feel much better.
Personally, I choose a FM FAL PARA carbine in 308. I like the bigger is better concept and the ability to turn cover into concealment, shooting through trees, cars, blowing big chunks out of walls.
FerFAL
Hi everyone.
You are forgetting one important factor: The importance of temporary cavity.
The temporary shock cavity made by the 308 is MUCH bigger than the one made by the 223.
There is no way around physics. Much bigger bullet with more energy do more damage.
Compared to the 223, the 308 has about twice the frontal area and delivers TWICE the amount of energy. If we were talking about pistol rounds or any other round at all, this fact would be enough to settle the matter once and for all, but we are supposed to believe that fragmentation compensates for such an obvious difference in power.
The entire fragmentation point is rather weak.
Think about handgun defensive ammo. Today’s top brands look to retain as much weight as possible, with little fragmentation. Think about the entire concept behind the Gold Dot ammunition. Today, most fragmentation handgun rounds are not considered as good stoppers as it was advertised some years ago.
Why would it work differently on the 223 round?
The reason behind the lack of popularity of fragmentation rounds is that the energy used up on fragmentation on the 223 round is energy that it is not being transferred into the target.
IMO, a larger temporary cavity is MUCH better than a small permanent cavity, since the shock overloads the nervous system, creating the shock required to put the target down at once.
Most American soldiers complain about the 223 performance, some say it does ok but most soldiers that saw a good amount of firefight have bad things to say about it.
Would I wan to get shot with it? No thanks, but that does not change the fact that the 308 is a more powerful round.
I live in Argentina, and we did have more than a few armed conflicts, against the British during the Malvinas war, and locally during the “Dirty War” years.
I’ve never, EVER heard of anyone complaining about the 308 performance, which is still used by our Military, with the FAL. Quite the contrary, the 308 has a long history of efficiency, and the FAL along with the 308 cartridge it fires has embedded fear and respect on men on both ends of the barrel.
Whenever someone points out that 223 is not allowed for hunting deer, they claim “Comparing deer to men is like comparing apples to oranges” I cant help but think “Right, the deer wont be shooting back at me!”
Should the USAF go back to 308?
Heck, I don’t know, they already issue 308 to the designated shooters who are the ones doing the accurate shooting, while 223 is used as suppressive fire.
Besides, today’s army is a mass of different people, big and small, male and female, recoil sensitive and even people that never shot a gun before. They need a light, small round with little recoil. But understanding the need of modern armies does not mean that we should buy that BS about 223 being better than the 308. That’s out right stupidity, and I can’t help but think there are those that want to urinate over our heads and tells us it’s raining due to a political agenda.
They worship fragmentation as if it were the greatest invention since sliced bread, and bash the 308 claiming it will only drill a .30 hole on the human body with no other effect. BS.
Anyone saw the graphics comparing the wound patter of the 223 to the 308? The ones with the “detach muscle” remarks?
Check the inch ruler below and you’ll see they are not in the same scale. The 308 graphic is reduced. Take the time to set them both on the same scale and you’ll see how puny the 223 cavity compares to the 308.
Again, both rounds are capable, it’s just that the 308 is “more” capable than the 223, and stating that you should double tap with it does not make me feel much better.
Personally, I choose a FM FAL PARA carbine in 308. I like the bigger is better concept and the ability to turn cover into concealment, shooting through trees, cars, blowing big chunks out of walls.
FerFAL
