45-70 shooters--Explain this!

[JohnKSa]

I'm getting two VERY different stories.

From the one side, there's a group that says that the .458 Win Mag isn't really enough for cape buffalo, etc.

From the other side, there's a group that says the hot-loaded .45-70 will easily take cape buff's.

Seems to me that if the .458 isn't enough, the .45-70 should be positively anemic--but the .45-70 folks claim that with the right loads, a .45-70 will break both shoulders on a cape buff or shoot all the way through one LENGTHWISE.

Something doesn't add up...

Why is a .458 cal., 500 grain bullet at 2100-2200fps from a .458 Win Mag not enough, but a .458 cal., 500 grain bullet at 1600-1700fps from a .45-70 more than enough.

Any insights? I'm stumped!

 

[Mike Irwin]

Opinions are like bung holes, everyone has one when it comes to their favorite cartridges.

Given that the two rounds share bullet diameters, I wouldn't see why the .458 would be any less rifle than the .45-70, given that you can get a couple hundred feet more a second out of the .458.

Now, my question is, at what angle can you shoot a Cape Buffalo up before the ballistic arc no longer is a factor?

 

[JohnKSa]

Now, my question is, at what angle can you shoot a Cape Buffalo up before the ballistic arc no longer is a factor?

I believe it's illegal to shoot up a Cape Buffalo...

And, although I love my .45-70, there's no way to shoot it so that the ballistic arc isn't a factor.

 

[csp271]

I believe the claims with the 45-70 involve very hard bullets. (example garrets 540gr). I don't know that anything like this is available for the 458.

 

[JohnKSa]

csp271,

I think that bullet hardness has a lot to do with it--also the fact that the Garrett bullet (at 540 grains) is heavier than typical .458 Win Mag bullets.

But, before we give all the credit to Garrett, I've also seen the results of a wet newspaper test that compared various .458 and .45-70 loads, and the .405 grain Remington factory .45-70 load out penetrated everything in either caliber. For those who aren't .45-70 fans, that is a very mild load, in the 1300-1400 fps range. This was also the only load with a bullet that didn't expand AT ALL.

So, just like you expect, a bullet that doesn't expand penetrates better.

That would lead one to believe Garrett's (outrageous??) penetration claims. The bullet doesn't expand at all due to it's low velocity, it's design and it's hardness. As a result of that and its high sectional density (long & heavy) it penetrates like nobody's business.

Does that mean that the .458 Win Mag would outperform the .45-70 with the proper bullets? Seems like that's the conclusion one is forced to...

What I'm also wondering is if the flat-nose design that you typically see in .45-70 bullets (but not in .458 Win Mag Bullets) contributes to enhanced penetration. Anybody done any comparative tests with flat-nose versus round-nose bullets?

Intuition would say that the round-nose should penetrate better, but do they really?

 

[Mike Irwin]

Whoa, wait a minute.

You're saying that .45-70 will out penetrate a .458 Win. Mag. with FMJ bullets?

Or are we talking strictly cast hunting bullets here?

If that's the case, the .458, which uses the same diameter bullet as the .45-70 in modern rifles, should best the .45-70 by about 200 fps at top loads, and should have a penetration advantage.

Does Garrett custom load .45-70, but not .458? Does he offer the bullets for sale to loaders?

I believe it's illegal to shoot up a Cape Buffalo...

Like heck it is. You just have to have a hunting license to do it legally, though.... (welcome to English semantics 101...)

the .405 grain Remington factory .45-70 load

WHOA! That's one LIGHT bullet! No wonder penetration is so good, velocity must be in the miles per second range.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Um ok I THINK I can help explain...

The original 458 was "hot loaded" a compressed powder charge that was backed off by Winchester after some blown up rifles (i think i read that in "Safari Rifles by Boddington) anyway the result was a cartridge that was NOT as good as the .416, or .470 (expensive english calibers) on VERY large dangerous thick skinned game (read that as Rhino, Elephant, Hippo etc.) Those cartridges deliver over 5000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

Buffalo, while tough IS NOT a pachyderm. I've read both camps of using solids AND soft points to take Buff. Boddington advises loading your magazine with 2 soft points on top of a solid. If you NEED the solid its to get the most penetration.

Ok while the 45-70 is a good old american bison caliber its NOT a DG rated caliber. Period. Don't care if you roll your own, have killed what ever with it or use Randy Garrett hammerhead bullets. There are RULES for DG that were set up early in the 1900's to PROTECT hunters by "using enough gun".

Ok so "Karamojo Bell" killed elephants with a 7x57. You aren't him.

Bottom line is there is NO factory load (except MAYBE Garretts) for the 45-70 that develops over 4000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. In fact in winchester loadings, the 45-70 has HALF the power of the 458. HALF!
Now that means a 300 grain winchester 45-70 has 2355 foot pounds at the muzzle, compared to a 500 gr fmj from the .458, which rates 4620 Foot Pounds!!!! Its Not going that much faster but it weighs 1/3 again as much AND is flying at 200fps faster.

On paper Remington's 405 gr. load is even WORSE. The 405 travels at 1330 fps and deivers 1590 foot pounds at the muzzle that's a THIRD the power of a 458. A Third!

(source Shooter's bible ballistics tables)

Wet newspapers? What does that have to do with heavy bone, muscle and gristle?

Botton line is the 45-70 is an old low pressure cartridge. Its more than CAPABLE of taking large game. But its NOT a DG cartridge, not by African standards. The "new 458" by federal uses a 400 gr solid bullet at 2390 fps, delivering 5030 foot pounds at the muzzle. There is NO 45-70 that can do that.

Now I realize bullet design and hard cast etc can do a lot, but CAST bullets CANNOT be fired at high velocity, you'll lead the barrel. What you want is a HEAVY well made bullet at medium to high velocity. To get over the magic 4000 foot pounds. Garret just keeps the velocity down and makes the bullet REALLY heavy which increases its muzzle energy, but at low velocity it sheds power rather quickly, compared to a high velocity cartridge, say a .375. IE you get a rainbow like trajectory, and it gets worse the heavier and slower you go.

You COULD take a 45-70 to Africa but there are very few countrys that would ALLOW you to hunt DG with it. You are far better off with a .375 (the DG MINIMUM averages 4265 foot pounds of muzzle energy).

Hope the info is helpful.

 

[Art Eatman]

If I understand it correctly, there are three pressure loadings for the .45-70: Low, for such as the old trapdoor Springfields; Medium, for modern lever actions (around 40,000 psi), and High, for such rifles as the Ruger #1.

Omitting considerations of legality, it would seem that at close range and in the hands of a skilled, self-controlled individual, the Ruger #1 *could* be effective on something like the African Buffalo.

Just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", one man's fun is somebody else's dangerous, foolish risk...

, Art

 

[Erich]

I don't shoot Cape Buffalos with my .45/70 Marlin. I've never looked into whether those Garrett rounds would suffice - they're pretty stout! I probably would go with a real African caliber, tho (read too much Capstick). I also wouldn't worry about shooting an American Bison with my Marlin.

(Mmm. Bison!)

 

[BigG]

One thing I don't think anybody mentioned... John Taylor's hunting experience indicated that "knocking out" a dangerous beast was a BIG consideration. By Knocking Out, he meant to do a Muhammad Ali on em. They were totally knocked out by a head shot that missed the brain. That was where he got his famous "Knock Out Values." Just penetration is not enuff for a pachyderm or a cafir rhinus or whatever ol cape buffler is called. Rhino he said was too stupid and nearsighted to matter. HTH

 

[C.R.Sam]

".....and in the hands of a skilled, self-controlled individual..."

Therein lies the rub methinks. Big gun allows for slightly less perfect shot placement thereby allowing a better chance of a reasonably clean kill. The undergunned and unskilled tourist/hunter puts others at risk along with the higher percentage of wounded game that gets away only to die later. Wasteing a resource valuable to the host country.

Thus safety, economy and politics all come into play.

Sam

 

[BigG]

My other two cents...

Not to mention that Taylor and others shot their game in the brush, not in some idyllic plains like we so often picture Africa to be. He had to put a shot thru a hole in the brush and hit a vital spot like an Eastern whitetail hunter. HTH

 

[Keith Rogan]

Hold on just a dad-gum second here!

I don't think Randy Garrett has ever said his .45/70 loads had more "power" than a .458!
What he has said (and I believe him), is that his Hammerhead rounds by virtue of their design, give deeper penetration than other more traditional "solid" rounds.
The theory goes that because of their weight-forward design (think of a shuttle-cock used in Badminton), they tend to "yaw" less than older designs with all the weight in the rear. Less yaw means greater penetration within the target.

Let's not got tied up in semantics here - there are all kinds of ways to measure bullet performance. If you want to measure it simply as "Velocity X Weight" then obviously the .458 must win because it has greater velocity.
However, if you want to measure it on penetration, then Garretts rounds have a solid claim because they can demonstrably out-penetrate traditional solids in various media (including Cape Buffalo) at ANY velocity.

Does that mean it's a better choice for hunting? I don't know - the Hammerhead is not exactly aerodynamic and is traveling at lower velocity so you have a much less useful trajectory than a .458. If you plan on getting in close it may be the best choice. If you want to pot your Buff from some distance then the .458 would be the best choice.
Having some experience with dangerous game I can say without question that if I had to root a big critter out of tight quarters I don't want to do it with a 9 pound, 26 inch barreled .458 - I want a Guide Gun carbine loaded with Hammerheads.

Either gun/load makes sense on big critters in the right circumstance, I just hate to see Garrett bashed for things he's never claimed.

 

[MFH]

If Federals new 458 is a 400gr solid at 2090, then the 45/70 can match up quite well..Unless my math is wrong, that calculates to a M.E. of 3899, not 5030. Buffalo Bore loads a 45/70 to 2000fps with a 400 gr bullet. http://www.buffalobore.com Given the option, however, I'll stick with the 458.

MFH

 

[RobCon]

Penetration on cape buffalo is dependent on many things: target angle, range, full belly or not(it is amazing what his stomach full of grass clippings can stop) and so on. My first two buff were taken at 35 and 120 paces with a .470 Nitro; 500gr bronze solid at an honest 2150fps from a Manton double. Shots were chest on,well-placed and NO bullets made it past the middle of the animal.My PH said this was typical and since he has seen scores of buff taken, I believe him. My third animal was taken with the .375H&H using 300gr Swift A-frame fodder(we were hunting lion when he appeared.) Target was quartering away,shot placed at the last rib on his left side and the bullet missed the belly, wrecked the heart and one lung and exited the chest. Go figure. My PH uses a .458 with Hornady solids, handloaded, for back up on buff and jumbo BTW. The new .45-70 stuff will take buff, it has been done more than once,BUT I prize my tender body in its unmodified condition and so will pass. If I get across the pond next month, I shall use a .416 Rigby with 410 solids on Syncerus Caffer, the joined-horned infidel. BTW, if anyone is recently returned from Zimbabwe, I would appreciate a report. Best regards, Rob

 

[Mike Irwin]

Keith,

Not bashing Garrett at all. My original bung-hole comment was issued before I knew we were dealing with Garrett's bullets. I've got some experience with his stuff, and have always been very impressed.

Just trying to figure the parameters we're dealing with, though.

I wasn't aware of the construction of the Hammerhead, but I can see how such construction would help in penetration by reducing yaw.

I'm assuming, however, to achieve this weight forward design it's got a hollow base?

 

[Keith Rogan]

Mike,

No, the Hammerhead doesn't have a hollow base. It simply has more weight forward than aft.
If you picture a traditional spitzer or round-nosed solid spinning at gawd-knows-how-many fps while it smashes through hide, meat and bone you can imagine that it isn't going to get too far before the heavier base begins to yaw out to one side or the other and reduce penetration to some degree.
The picture below is a Garrett round and perhaps will give more insight than any number of verbal descriptions I can muster up.

The .45/70 Hammerhead has been tested against the .458 (with various loads) and the Garrett round does outperform IF penetration is the criteria. But of course penetration is not the sole criteria against which we weigh our needs. There are other factors like range, versatility, etc, that come into play. I think either choice is a "good" one when weighed against the terrain, the other critters you might want to take, etc.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Ok, appears to be a lightning (or crimping) groove slightly back of the center point of the bullet, a fairly wide grease groove, and a reduced area on the base for a gas check.

I'm really wondering, however, just how far back from the tip the center of gravity is, though, but it must be enough to make it work.

 

[Mike Irwin]

You know, all in all, though, were I to be hunting Cape Horn Buffalo, in a plains environment (if you're hunting a buff in the brush, chances are you've muffed the first shot and only wounded it) I really think I'd rather have a .375 with Nosler Partitions. Expansion AND deep penetration.

 

[Dr.Rob]

MFH ... you seem to be correct though I took that info right off the Federal Ballistics tables velocity is corrected to 2390 fps. My typo.