45/70 Express Explosive bullet

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Drm50

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I have old Ideal Gould Express HP 330gr 45/70 mould. I have read the old
Buffalo hunters put a 22 blank in the hollow point to make explosive bullet.
I made up 6 , shot them into rock ledges at 50yds none of them went off.
I used Rem. Ramset 22 shells. Checked shells they were good. If they won't
go off on rocks , I doubt if they would in a Buffallo! Back to drawing board.
 
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riflemen

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I believe exploding bullets are illegal.. If I remember correctly the idea of the 22cal blank installed was to make the projectile expand "better" it didn't work...

I seen first hand some exploding shotgun shells, they were hand loaded, with fiber covered magnesium projectiles... It was fun for a few minutes. Then someone shot a tracer round into a tree quickly igniting the dry leaves, it didn't cause a huge fire but enough concern not to do it twice...

I would imagine drilling a hole in the end of a 45-70, and inserting a 22cal blank cap in there it would have to go off, did you use real crimp blanks? I dropped on the bed of my pickup truck before and it went off, scared me enough to drop the entire package of them, lol Luckily no more went off.. they are called crimp blanks they sell them on amazon for aorund $25 per 100, I used to use them to train the dogs, until the pistol broke, now I just load my own blanks or shoot live rounds {10/22}..
 
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Unclenick

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Buffalo hunters would have had .22 blanks with chlorate primers and possibly with some fulminating mercury in them. Could have been more sensitive than modern ones. Still, I never heard of that method working, either. I think the military ammo that ignites on impact (incendiary rounds, explosive rounds) use PETN.
 
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jmorris

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Sounds like something an author came up with.

Closest thing I would have would be a .223 varmit bullet or perhaps 50 BMG API rounds. Not illegal to own or use in my State.

What would you expect from a 22 blank, the bullet exploding like a grenade or the brass popping out the front?

Don't try this at home but I have crushed primers and (no bullet or powder) rimfire cases in a benchvise, completely flat without them going off. Takes a pretty specific "hit" to set them off.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
I believe that one of the makers of such bullets was Hoxie.

Judging by everything I've read over the years, the bullets were considered to be a rather useless gimmick even back then.


Regarding military explosive bullets, most militaries have loaded explosive small arms bullets of one type or another over the years.

It is very prudent to NEVER attempt to pull bullets from military ammunition, especially WW II era Japanese rounds, unless you know EXACTLY what kind of cartridge and bullet it is.

Japanese explosive bullets for 7.7mm had a small flat point and a purple sealant band around the bullet and case mouth (which might have faded or chipped off over the years).

I once found an 7.7 explosive round in an odd lot box of loose cartridges at a gun show. The seller had no clue what it was, so I bought it, and on the way home threw it out the window and into the Susquehanna river.
 
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JD0x0

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Sounds like something an author came up with.
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+1

There are 'explosive' .30 and .50 cal bullets. Often referred to as Adjustment Incendiary or Immediate Action Incendiary they were not intended for human targets, though. In fact a good soft point/HP would actually do more damage than these 'exploding' bullets, if they happened to detonate in a body.
I believe there are also more modern HEI .30 cal bullets (HEI = High explosive incendiary) again, not meant for human targets. Most of these bullets were meant to be used against vehicles. The 'explosion' would cause a visible 'splash' where it impacts basically showing impacts more easily. They were intended as a low profile tracer of sorts. Remember, tracers light up in flight, which makes them very visible. This could give away your position, for example. These bullets would also have potential to damage control surfaces, and fragile components.

You need a bigger projectile to fit enough explosive charge, if you want the explosive doing more damage. As far as an explosive being used to open up a hollow point, that's a bit silly IMO, you're better off just casting the bullets with a big open hollow point, if you want lots of expansion.
 
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buck460XVR

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Back to drawing board.
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My question is why? What significant advantage do you think the blank .22 cartridge will give to the already effective 45/70 round? I'd think a suitable bullet with preferred terminal performance would be much more effective on any game animal that the 45/70 is appropriate for.
 
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Jim Watson

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I no longer have the book, but Greener's 1910 'Book of the Gun' has a formula for explosive bullet warheads.

There was a Good Old Boy Network recipe for explosive bullets before Algore invented the Internet and everybody got so cautious. It did not involve .22 blanks.

I saw one of the commercial Exploder (Hinkley Special) bullets fired into a log. There was no noise to be heard over the gunshot and no shower of splinters, just a bullet hole with a wisp of smoke coming out of it.
 
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Jim Watson

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Well, they paid me for my books, I just haven't bought replacements for everything. I ought to get a Greener, there is a lot of good stuff in there.
 
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jmr40

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I have read the old
Buffalo hunters put a 22 blank in the hollow point to make explosive bullet.
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Never happened.

Almost all of the Buffalo were dead by the start of the civil war in 1861. Some killed by buffalo hunters using big bore muzzle loading rifles, but most died from an extended drought during the 1850's and 60's. The 22 wasn't invented until 1857. Even if they did, it would be counter productive. You need penetration on animals that size. An exploding bullet would have very much limited penetration.

Folk lore is that the 45-70 was a popular buffalo gun. It was introduced in 1873, long after the buffalo hunting era, with about the same power as a 45 cal muzzle loader. It was considered underpowered for anything larger than whitetails at the time. And by 1874 buffalo hunting was outlawed to preserve the handful left. Neither the 45-70 or any other black powder cartridge gun was used extensively for buffalo. None legally.
 
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T. O'Heir

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"...or any other black powder cartridge gun was used extensively for buffalo..." What do you think was used? Um, ever heard of Christian Sharps? BP was the only powder there was until the 1890's. No exploding bullets for sure though. The American plains were like the Moon as far as isolation was concerned. No hide hunter would have money for 'em.
Anyway, the serious destruction of the American buffalo herds was long after the U.S. Civil War ended, not when it started. Certainly not outlawed in 1874 either. And it had nothing to do with droughts. It was hide hunting, railroads and destroying the native civilization.
There are pictures of huge piles of hides dating from 1878. Bill Cody killed a reported 20,000 between 1870 and 1879. 5,855 in 2 months of 1876 alone.
Buffalo were not protected until the 20th Century.
 
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Jim Watson

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The Hunt of 1878 was said to be one of the last great years, but not the very last. Note that Sharps folded in 1881.

Buffalo Bill Cody made his name with a Trapdoor Springfield .50-70, "Lucrezia Borgia."

About every caliber from .40 up was used for buffalo hunting in the classic manner of "getting a stand" and shooting as many as your skinner could handle before the hides slipped.
 
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TXAZ

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I don't think there are many explosive rounds on the market for rifles. There are some explosive rounds in use today for .50, called the Raufoss MK 211 round, aka "multipurpose".
The entry hole/wound is the same as .50 ball but the exit is a growing conic that grows with distance. There are some examples on YouTube.
 
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schmellba99

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Almost all of the Buffalo were dead by the start of the civil war in 1861. Some killed by buffalo hunters using big bore muzzle loading rifles, but most died from an extended drought during the 1850's and 60's. The 22 wasn't invented until 1857. Even if they did, it would be counter productive. You need penetration on animals that size. An exploding bullet would have very much limited penetration.

Folk lore is that the 45-70 was a popular buffalo gun. It was introduced in 1873, long after the buffalo hunting era, with about the same power as a 45 cal muzzle loader. It was considered underpowered for anything larger than whitetails at the time. And by 1874 buffalo hunting was outlawed to preserve the handful left. Neither the 45-70 or any other black powder cartridge gun was used extensively for buffalo. None legally.
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That is just not accurate information.

There was a pretty solid drought from about 1840 through about 1865 that put a sizable dent in the plains herd of buffalo - along with the hunting and wanton slaughter (mostly done to eliminate the main source of food for the plains Indian tribes that were at war with the US at the time). But by the early to mid 1860's, the drought was broken and the herds had actually began to recover.

The post Civil War era saw an uptick in killing of bison for a couple of reasons - one being the continued war between the US and the plains tribes, the other being the popularity of buffalo hide in the east for fashionable clothing. The railroads and increasing westward movement of farming and ranching also played a role.

Grant veto'd a bill in 1874 that would have protected buffalo from hunting. Later that same year Gen. Sheridan gave a speech to Congress to continue the slaughter of buffalo in support of the war on the indian tribes. The generally accepted last major buffalo hunt occurred in 1881 on the Grand River in SD. By the mid 1880's ('84, '85-ish), the herds that once dominated the plains were just about wiped out. In 1899 there was a concious effort led by Scotty Philip to both save the species, as well as increase the numbers (but he was far from the only one - there were people in Montana, the Dakotas and an entire separate effort in Canada to save the species from extinction).

The black powder .45-70 was one of many chamberings that was very popular among buffalo hunters for the 10 or so year period that the plains herds were just about hunted into extinction.
 
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Deja vu

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Folk lore is that the 45-70 was a popular buffalo gun. It was introduced in 1873, long after the buffalo hunting era, with about the same power as a 45 cal muzzle loader. It was considered underpowered for anything larger than whitetails at the time. And by 1874 buffalo hunting was outlawed to preserve the handful left. Neither the 45-70 or any other black powder cartridge gun was used extensively for buffalo. None legally.
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I know for a fact that at least 1 buffalo fell to a 45/70 though I would hardly call it hunting. More like playing hide and seek then taking an easy shot at about 60 yards at an animal that just stood there looking at me.

The hunt its self was pretty poor but the meat was great and the head mount on the wall got lots of attention until I gave it to my dad. I still have the tanned hide and have been thinking about using it as a blanket. The meat is very lean and when cooking steaks I remember I had to wrap the out side of the meat in bacon to prevent it from getting to dry but it had an awesome flavor and I am told that its very healthy. At least the one I shot was grass raised.

Yes killing buffalo is legal but most are farm raised and have more in common with a domesticated cow than a wild animal. I understand there is a heard of wild buffalo near yellow stone that can be hunting on an extremely limited basis.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
the other being the popularity of buffalo hide in the east for fashionable clothing.
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A pretty accurate summation, except for this..

While buffalo robes and blankets are good cold weather gear, they are HEAVY. The demand for buffalo hides in the east wasn't so much fashion, (although there was some, it wasn't like beaver pelt for hats), it was for industrial use.

Buffalo hide is a superior tough durable leather, and became in high demand for making belts. Not for trousers, belts to run power machinery in factories. Not well remembered today, but an 1800s factory, running off water power (or wind, sometimes) would have, literally, miles of belts and pulleys transferring the power to the machinery. Buffalo leather was well suited, and effectively cheap to obtain. While the supply lasted...

I saw a show not too long ago, and it also told of how, after the big herds were wiped out, former hunters and skinners made a living for a few years collecting the bones of the buffalo for use as bonemeal.

Also it mentioned how some of them died from infections, after a summer of skinning buffalo and never bathing or even washing their hands....

Clearly, some of the things buffalo hunters did were not all good ideas...;)
 
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