.44 Special ?

[tinker2]

Paper ballistics

We have bowling pin shoots. It is a timed match.
You can’t just hit them and knock them down.
You must knock them off the table.

My 44 magnum will blow a hole clean through them
and not even rock them. My 44 special will knock
them up to thirty feet back.

The magnums just don’t have as good a chance.
Is that what you call knock down power rather then
paper ballistics?

Happy Holidays

 

[Mike Irwin]

"My 44 magnum will blow a hole clean through them
and not even rock them."

What the hell are you shooting?

I've been shooting bowling pin matches for close to 20 years now, and many of the shooters use .44 Mags. just for the hell of it.

I've never seen a .44 Mag. of any power level fail to remove a pin from the table on a solid hit.

 

[USP45usp]

I had the .44spl from Tauras and besides the cost of ammo, great gun. The cost of ammo is what is the biggest non-saleing point around.

Other than that, I liked the big bore. Criminals sees the teeny .357 bore and then the .44spl bore, well, they may change their minds (j/k, am in a good mood right now ).

But the ammo is expensive, and the .44 mags out there are larger and I have found that the snubby's kick like a mule but you still have the same option, expensive .44spl ammo to use instead.

Wayne

 

[cochise]

I think most shooters agree that handloading opens the door for economical and multi purpose loads. Loading for the .44 is easy. Bullits abound because of the "magnum". The shell is large enough for arthritic hands to manipulate.

I know the question was not about "loads" but I did want to suggest the .44 special really comes onto it's own when reloaded. I remember reading the power can match the magnum load. Not wise but it can be done.

So that is why I own.............. S&W models...24, 624, 296, and a Colt SAA .44 special. I used them for varmits, the 4 legged, and 2 legged kind.

 

[tinker2]

Mike Irwin
Quote:
“I've been shooting bowling pin matches for close to 20 years now, and many of the shooters use .44 Mags. just for the hell of it.
I've never seen a .44 Mag. of any power level fail to remove a pin from the table on a solid hit.”

Boy that’s quite a statement. In 20 years of bowling pin matches you have NEVER seen a 44 mag not knock it off the table with a solid hit.

 

[cje1980]

It outperforms the .357 pretty easily. A favorite load of shooters around here is the Blazer "flying ashtray" Gold Dot HPs. 200 grains of .44 goodness.

The only actual test to my knowledge of that load shows it penetrating 21" and not expanding. I don't see how that is outperforming the 357Mag. The Silvertip would be a better choice. It expanded to about .70 and penetrated about 14". I wouldn't say that that is easily outperforming the 357Mag either has many 357Mag expand to .65 and penetrate even more than that. I know for sure that the 357Mag is going to leave a more devastating temporary cavity.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Boy that’s quite a statement. In 20 years of bowling pin matches you have NEVER seen a 44 mag not knock it off the table with a solid hit."

Yep, that's my statement.

A few things need to be said on top of that.

The balance on a bowling pin is designed to be somewhat tenuous. Even a non-solid hit is going to move the pin.

I find it completely unbelievable that a .44 Mag. could shoot THROUGH a bowling pin without moving it.

A good friend of mine regularly shoots pin matches with his .44 Mag. He's pushing a 240-gr. hard cast bullet out of Ruger using just over 19 grains of 2400, which gives him a solid 1,550 fps average over his chronograph. He doesn't shoot through the pins -- we make him chase his own pins because they fly so damned far.

I've seen people take on bowling pins with FMJ bullets that are moving a lot faster than a .44 Mag. and which have a much smaller frontal area (CZ 52 in 7.63). Even these will topple a bowling pin. They won't adequately remove one from a table on anything but a perfect hit, but they will topple the pin.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

So, once again, I ask, what is your load?

 

[IM_Lugger]

I'm with Mike on this one

Why wouldn't a 44mag knock over a pin? That makes no sence what so ever...I've shot bowling pins before and what ever a .44spl will do the .44mag will do it better

 

[tinker2]

IM_Lugger
Quote:
“Why wouldn't a 44mag knock over a pin? That makes no sence what so
ever...I've shot bowling pins before and what ever a .44spl will do the
.44mag will do it better”

That is what I use, a .44 magnum. I just use .44 special in it
for pin matches. It is a timed match. .44 special has a lot
faster recovery time. All other things being the same ( like me
shooting the same gun ) the magnum can’t match the time.

Mike Irwin
Quote:
"Boy that’s quite a statement. In 20 years of bowling pin matches you
have NEVER seen a 44 mag not knock it off the table with a solid hit."

Mike my business/company is the one that has put on/sponsored
all the bowling pin shoots in my neck of the woods from the beginning.

It is possible that our experiences are not all the same. I’m sure/I know
that I have seen/done a lot of things that some folk find hard to believe
or understand. I’m sure that you have also.

I do not have a problem with you or anyone not believing something
that you have not seen or experienced yet. So stick to your guns and
your beliefs my friends. I enjoy reading your posts and the posts of all
the others that are here. Life would be dull if we all had the same
experiences and same opinions

As to what loads do/did I use, the best I can say is most of the standard
calibers that I shoot are factory shells because I have a lot of it. I usually
only reload things that are not standard. I don’t have the magnum
mindset any more so I don’t load anything hot normally.

Happy Holidays

 

[tipoc]

The original question was on the .44 Spl. in a Charter 2000. I think this question has been pretty well answered by folks who claim more familiarity with the Charter Arms guns than I have. The old Bulldog has a good reputation but the newer versions may be a bit iffy. This is what I've heard but I have no experience of either.

On the question of the relative merits of the .44 Spl. and the .357. Here I do have some experience.

In a handgun the .357 came be fit into a smaller package than the .44 Spl. In a smaller gun the .357 produces a good deal of recoil and this effects many shooters accuracy and shot to shot recovery time (for this reason many folks simply shoot .38+P out of their small frame .357s). Like all things concerning guns it's a trade off.

In a truck or house gun size is not so important.

In a 4" barrel gun and smaller the .357 has a good deal more muzzle blast and noise than the .44 Spl. does.

Recoil is subjective from person to person. My experience is that the .44spl. has more of a push, similiar to the .45acp in a wheel gun, than the kick of a .357. This makes it quicker to get back on target than the .357 in a similiar sized gun, at least for me and for most shooters I know. This varies with the load obviously.

Ammo is readily available for both. If your local gunatorium does not have what you want it can be ordered. Gun shows and online are also good options. Cheap reloads for the .357 are less expensive than for .44 but good ammo is always a bit pricey for both. Black Hills makes excellent reloaded .44 Spl.

As a self defense round there are good loadings available in both calibers that can serve you well. Both rounds have good reputations as self defense rounds. A look at Bob Forker's book "Ammo and Ballistics II" shows the edge to the .44 in the Taylor Knockout Index.

Since you already have a .357 I'd look for a S&W or a Taurus in .44 Spl. and learn about and experiment with this round. Get a good quality piece. S&W recently introduced a new M22 with a 4" barrel (you can read a lot about this gun at the S&W forum). If weight is not a factor you can get a .44 Magnum gun and use this for the .44 Spl. as well. Or split the difference and get a .45acp wheelgun.

In time you may come to agree with me (and I can add ol' Elmer Keith, Clint Smith, Dave Lauck, Mike Venturino, Jeff Cooper, John Taffin and a good many others) that for self defense and hunting the .44 Spl. has an edge on the .357. In a wheelgun the .44 has the advantage even on the .45acp but only for hunting where the increased case capacity of the .44 makes a difference.

tipoc

 

[TX_RGR]

It outperforms the .357 pretty easily. A favorite load of shooters around here is the Blazer "flying ashtray" Gold Dot HPs. 200 grains of .44 goodness.


The only actual test to my knowledge of that load shows it penetrating 21" and not expanding. I don't see how that is outperforming the 357Mag. The Silvertip would be a better choice. It expanded to about .70 and penetrated about 14". I wouldn't say that that is easily outperforming the 357Mag either has many 357Mag expand to .65 and penetrate even more than that. I know for sure that the 357Mag is going to leave a more devastating temporary cavity.

These are two separate thoughts, pal. Thought 1: It outperforms the .357 pretty easily (.44 special loads can be pumped up to nearly .44 magnum specs, and please dont tell me the .357 outdoes that)

Thought 2. A favorite of shooters seems to be the 200 gr GD HP.

As for your testing, I have already heard of your other "data" concerning 16 required shots to down a perpetrator with .45 acp vs. only two with the wondermagnum.

Btw, temporary cavity is bunk, and means absolutely nothing, most certainly at handgun velocities. Ditto "energy dump" and whiz-bang shock factor.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I do not have a problem with you or anyone not believing something
that you have not seen or experienced yet."

What, you mean the suspension of the laws of physics?

I know I'll never see a .44 Mag. shoot through a bowling pin without moving it.

It is a simple, physical, impossibility.

A bowling pin simply has too little mass combined with a tenuous center of gravity to not be moved by the substantial momentum of a .44 caliber bullet moving at speed.

 

[tinker2]

Mike Irwin

Are you telling me that you have never seen something
that most common folk think is impossible?

 

[cje1980]

As for your testing, I have already heard of your other "data" concerning 16 required shots to down a perpetrator with .45 acp vs. only two with the wondermagnum.

When did I ever say that, didn't come from me? As far as the tests on the ammo mentioned I'll post it below.

These are two separate thoughts, pal. Thought 1: It outperforms the .357 pretty easily (.44 special loads can be pumped up to nearly .44 magnum specs, and please dont tell me the .357 outdoes that)

Show me a 44Spl. load that can make 700ft/lbs of energy from a 4" barrel, as there are commercially available 357Mag loads that make that much energy. It takes an extremely hot 44Spl. load to even match an average 357Mag load. There is no way that a 44Spl. load within SAAMI pressure specs can come anywhere near the 44Mag.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6605&SearchTerms=200,Gold,Dot

 

[cje1980]

Btw, temporary cavity is bunk, and means absolutely nothing, most certainly at handgun velocities. Ditto "energy dump" and whiz-bang shock factor.

Temporary cavities only exist at handgun velocities, what you are referring to is the phenomenon known as hydrostatic shock. The low hydrostatic shock induced at handgun velocities creates a temporary wound channel. This wound channel doesn't do "permanent" damage to tissue at handgun velocities. At rifle velocities at 2700fps and up this shock that is induced creates permanent damage. So although the shock induced by handgun rounds going 1100fps and up doesn't create permanent damage, nobody has ever proven that it doesn't play a role in incapacitating someone. The FBI itself said that it plays a role in the psychological factors that can cause incapacitation. The more pain that a bullet induces the more likely a BG is going to go down. So the faster the bullet is moving the larger the wound channel and the more shock is induced. Criminals that are intoxicated or drugged up generally aren't very affected by this factor, so the FBI discounts the temporary wound cavity as an "unreliable" means of incapacitation. What they say is that police officers aren't in control of psychological factors. Their research only focuses on what they have control over. Bullet diameter and velocity are important aspects of wounding. A larger diameter bullet doesn't rely as much on temporary wound cavities and expansion as a smaller diamter bullet does. You will never find any scientific research however, that says that the temporary cavity means nothing or that it never plays a factor in incapacitation.

 

[cochise]

A .357 mag is nothing to sneeze at, but paper ballistics are misleading. The Taylor formula is a better indicator of a "bullit'" power.

But really, just go and shoot some animals, you will be surprised what does what. Get over 150 lbs on live targets and the big bullits are better, see for yourself.

Too bad they don't give permits for "bad guys". There is a **** full of them around.

 

[IM_Lugger]

.44spl 255gr bullet at 1000fps (from 3.25in)= 566 ft. lbs from Buffalo bore, about the same as a 'regular' factory .357mag

if you load a .44spl to the same preasures as .357mag, .44spl will be a be a clear winner.

 

[cje1980]

if you load a .44spl to the same preasures as .357mag, .44spl will be a be a clear winner.

Well that's obvious but there isn't any reloading manuals that show you how to. The same applies to the 38Spl. it can be loaded to equal standard 357Mag loads, but how will you know how to load them. SAAMI dropped pressure specs. on both cartridges and reloading manuals don't really tell you how to get to those pressure levels safely. I'm not going to get into this argument again, I'm just really curious about the 44Spl. "easily" outperforming the 357Mag. There is a .07" difference in caliber and the 357Mag clearly has more energy and velocity. The 357Mag generally has a good reputation for consistent expansion and penetration, does anything really "easily" outperform it. Define "easily" outperform. I was just making a point that the only actual gelatin test of the 200gr. GD 44Spl. load that I've seen shows it not expanding at all and penetrating 21". I researched this information because at one point I was thinking of using the 44Spl for a HD caliber but decided to use my 357Mag revolvers for that purpose as there is a wider variety of ammo for it.

 

[IM_Lugger]

Cje1980 don’t know if your question was intended for me (I didn’t read the entire thread) but I didn’t say anything about .44spl “easily” outperforming .357mag...both guns have the same capacity so to me it doesn't really matter both are powerful enough.

For home defence I'd definitely go with .44spl simply because of the lower noise, lower recoil and lower chance for overpenetration.

 

[Mike in VA]

I bought me one of them fugly M21 Thunder Ranch Specials, and though I've not shot a wide variety of loads thru it, I have found it to be generally, a pretty easy, comfortable large bore handgun to shoot. It does, indeed, compare to a .45 ACP in it's 'power pulse' - I'd rather shoot a hundred rounds of .44 than a similar amount of .357 in a light revolver. IMO