44 mag bullet styles for 240 grain

SL1

New member
Some folks attach some wounding ballistics fantasy to wadcutters - but it is just fantasy. IMO, bullet fit is more important than bullet profile for accuracy.

It seems hard to discredit the concept that wadcutter bullets have more deadly terminal effect than round-nose bullets, and silly to try. There are too many accounts of actual effect on animals, going back for many decades.

One that I remember from quite a while ago was from a guy trying to shoot some porqupines out of his trees (before they gnawed them to shreds). He shot one with several round-nose .38 Special bullets, but did not dislodge it. He then used a much less powerful .38 wadcutter, because he ran out of the regular .38 Special loads. The porqupine feel with the first wadcutter. Comparing the wounds, he realized that the wadcutter did much more damage.

One comparison that I had happen to me involved an airgun with round-nose and cup-point pellets (which did not actually expand). I shot a squirrel right through both lungs (close to if not actually hitting the heart) with the round-nose, knocking it onto its back, only to see it thrash around, then jump onto its feet and dash into the brush. Later I saw it hopping around with big bulges of skin just behind both forelegs. It lived for weeks, at least. I was using that round-nose pellet because it was substantially more accurate than the other designs that I tried (1 hole at 50' using a rest and scope). But, I switched to the cup-points for pests after that (about 0.3" groups at 50'). The first squirrel I shot with the cup-points in essentially the same place. That pellet did not expand and did not exit, and the squirrel went down, thrashed for about 10 seconds, and was dead.

So, I am a believer that a wide, flat bullet will do a heck of a lot more damage to a living target than is done by a bullet of the same diameter with a more "streamlined" nose.

It really doesn't matter whether the bullet is hard-cast lead or a non-expanding jacketed or solid type, so long as the nose is the same shape. However, it is usually possible to get higher muzzle velocity from a hard-cast lead bullet than from a jacketed bullet in a magnum revolver, while staying within the SAAMI limit on peak pressure. More velocity at the target gives more wound channel width, and a greater lethality to the target.

The trouble with non-expanding bullets occurs when they hit something that offers little resistance, like just skin and lung tissue on a broadside shot, and exit the far side without expending much of their energy making a wound channel inside the animal. In that case, an EXPANDING bullet will do more damage. But, that is really just a more streamlined bullet that CONVERTS TO A MORE-THAN-BORE-DIAMETER BLUNT BULLET when it hits the animal. If you use a large diameter bullet to begin with, such as a .45 or .475, expansion is not so necessary.

And, as for bullet fit vs accuracy, please read the recent article in Handloader about "duplicating old round-nose bullet loads." It pretty clearly demonstrates that round-nose bullets are beneficial to accuracy when bullet fit is not ideal, as was often the situation in the early days of the revolver (and current days for the Colt SAA). As the author points out, round-nose bullets are great if all you want to do with them is hit metal targets or punch Cowboy Action Shooting paper targets.

SL1
 
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jmortimer

Moderator
"So, I am a believer that a wide, flat bullet will do a heck of a lot more damage to a living target than is done by a bullet of the same diameter with a more "streamlined" nose."
You and many others.
 

buck460XVR

New member
When you find that majic bullet thats cheap to use and hits dead center every time without aiming let me know id like to try a box of them.

I quit lookin' for magic bullets years ago when experience taught me that using accurate, appropriate ammo with proper shot placement was all the magic I needed. If I hit where I needed, it didn't matter what brand or type of hunting bullet I used. If I didn't, most times it didn't matter either. A bad shot with the best bullet ever made is still a bad shot. With Texas heart shots, you don't need end to end penetration, you just need to hit that Texas heart. LOL.

As I said before, everyone has their favorite. Hopefully it's their favorite because their practice and experience with it has shown them that it is accurate in their firearm and effective against the game they are after. Not because of what was written in the ad on the back cover of a gun rag or what they read on a internet forum, or because their boyhood hero used them. Hopefully these same folks know that there is no such "best for all" bullet and that bullet types used can and do change when the application changes. I use much different bullets in my ought-six for 'yotes than I do for deer. I use much different bullets in the 629s for deer than I do for the bowling pins at the range. I tend to find something that works in an application and I stick with it. If it ain't broke, it don't need to be fixed. If it ain't the bullets fault in the first place you wounded that deer instead of killin' it, changin' to a different bullet ain't gonna help. Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used. His confidence in his skill and his equipment helped also. Same with most successful hunters. They don't feel the need to puff out their chest and claim their way and their "magic" bullet is the best. They know it is the best....at least for them. They also know it might not be the ticket for someone else. Folks here need to be more like that.


As for the post about shooting the squirrel thru BOTH lungs and it continued to live for weeks like nuttin' happened...........I call bullship. I hear this same baloney every deer season from someone who wounded a deer and lost it. "Yeah, just clipped the lungs and the bullet didn't perform." Yeah right. Like they did a post-mortem exam on a deer they never found. I'm thinkin' the deer was turned more than they thought, they hit farther back than they thought and they gut shot it. No animal in the wild takes any type of bullet thru the lungs and goes very far. If that were the case, archers wouldn't kill many deer.
 

SL1

New member
Buck,

Regarding the squirrel: that was no B.S. First of all, remember that it was a 0.177" diameter, 8.6 grain airgun pellet at about 900 fps. With a streamlined point.

As for where the squirrel was hit, I could easily tell after the fact when I saw the squirrel again. It was hopping around my yard, coming within tens of feet. I was looking at it with 12X binoculars. It clearly had about golf ball sized areas of its skin puffed way out on both sides of its body. The left side, where the pellet entered, was centered just behind/touching the front leg, mid-way up between back and belly. The exit side was maybe a tad lower, but still clearly through ribs, not belly.

When first hit, the squirrel was rolled sideways onto his back, and started madly clawing/kicking the air. I never expected to see it regain its feet and dash into the brush. Even then, I did not expect to ever see it alive again. But, it clearly lived for at least a couple of weeks.

The point is: the cup-point pellet did a much more effective job the next time I shot a squirrel. Even if I had hit a squirrel in the abdomen with a cup point, I don't think it would have lived for a couple of weeks. There was a LOT of blood with the cup point but nearly none with the round point, despite having made an extra hole.

SL1
 
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buck460XVR

New member
Buck,

Regarding the squirrel: that was no B.S. First of all, remember that it was a 0.177" diameter, 8.6 grain airgun pellet at about 900 fps. With a streamlined point.


Again, no squirrel would live with that or any other projectile of that size making a complete pass thru both lungs. Not for weeks....not for hours, maybe for a few minutes. Again, the wounding was not caused by bullet type.....but bullet placement.

There was a LOT of blood with the cup point but nearly none with the round point, despite having made an extra hole.

This only reaffirms the point that the bullet did not hit the squirrel in the lungs. Regardless of bullet type, the squirrel would have died quickly because of massive blood loss.......again if hit in both lungs. Even if there would have been no blood on the ground. In comparison, a .177 hole in both lungs of a squirrel would be like a 2'' hole completely thru both of your lungs. Do you really think bullet shape/type would make a difference if you lived or not with a hole the size of a tennis ball completely thru both lungs....with no immediate medical attention?
 

SL1

New member
Buck,

There is no use discussing this with you further. You were not here to see what I saw. You refuse to believe what I say. You fail to understand that a round-nose bullet does not make a bullet-diameter hole in flesh, because it pushes it aside and can make a quite narrow wound channel.

Since you have failed to tell us that you have shot ANY living organism with a subsonic round-nosed bullet or pellet, I see no reason for anybody to take your word as based on any sort of expertise. Especially since it is in direct contradiction to what so many others have experienced.

And, remember, we don't suddenly become better shots when we put aside the round-nosed bullets and pick-up the wadcutters and cup-points. (In fact more the opposite.) If bullet shape made no difference, then there should be as many stories about the one that got away when hit by wadcutters as there are about the ones that got away when hit by round-noses. But, there aren't.

SL1
 

jmortimer

Moderator
"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.
 

dahermit

New member
"Some folks attach some wounding ballistics fantasy to wadcutters - but it is just fantasy"...
...Sorry, but I'll stick with expert opinion.
I have seen articles with pictures of the Ballistic Gelatin blocks with cavity comparisons that support the "expert opinions". It would seem that wound cavitation increases proportionally with the area of the meplat.
 

dahermit

New member
"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.
Some addendum to the cast "Elmer Bullet" (429421). As I remember, Elmer or others thought that the sharp semi-wadcutter shoulder would cut a clean-sharp wound through a game animal increasing hemorrhage. However, more current tests show that, because the meplat of the bullet causes cavitation in the wound, the sharp shoulder does not even come in contact with the flesh of the animal. However, because target paper is not sugject to cavitation, targets shot with Keith-type cast bullets have a sharper bullet hole than that produced by similar round-nose bullets.
 

buck460XVR

New member
Since you have failed to tell us that you have shot ANY living organism with a subsonic round-nosed bullet or pellet, I see no reason for anybody to take your word as based on any sort of expertise. Especially since it is in direct contradiction to what so many others have experienced.


One does not need to be an expert to realize that a hole broadside, completely thru both lungs will kill an animal....regardless of shape....and yes I have killed many an animal with sub-sonic pellets. I grew up using BB and pellet guns killing rabbits and squirrels. Still do occasionally in my back yard when they get into the bird feeder or my blueberry bushes. Never mattered what the shape of the pellet was....as long as I hit them in the vitals. I'm bettin' the same would have been true for the squirrel you wounded and then watched suffer for weeks. I never claimed to be an expert, still don't. I generally respect others opinions, but I have no problem calling Bullcrap when I see it. Saying a flat nosed pellet in the guts is better than a spire point thru both lungs is just that......BS. I doubt that my statement that a bullet broadside thru both lungs, regardless of type shape will kill any animal is in contradiction to anybodies experience. Well, other than yours.


"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.


So..............in other words, you're saying his hunting success has more to do with bullet shape/type that his shooting/hunting skills? More BS. Yep, Elmer was opinionated, as are many of us. As I said before, I respect other folk's opinions and their right to use whatever they are confident and comfortable with whether it be for hunting or SD. I actually advise folks to do this. I do not tho, need to have them tell me that what they use can make up for poor shooting and hunting skills. I do not need them to tell me what is the best for me and my situations. I actually use large meplat hard cast bullets in some situations.......but I do not consider them the holy grail of bullets. Just another bullet type.
 

jmortimer

Moderator
"So..............in other words, you're saying his hunting success has more to do with bullet shape/type that his shooting/hunting skills?"
Yes and no. If you read his articles, he spends much time discussing bullet failures and what bullets work and why. He did use JSP bullets for hunting and his "Keith" bullets. If Elmer were alive today, he would be impressed at the premium bullets that are available. Hard cast bullets with large/max meplats are not for everybody.
 

SL1

New member
As I previously stated, no sense continuing a discussion with somebody who just insists that I am a liar.

But, to clarify the "suffering squirrel" situation: I did try to put it out of its misery. But I only got one more shot, with only its head visible, and had a clean miss when it moved just as I fired. This is a residential area, so opportunities for safe shots are severely limited. And the squirrel apparently learned real fast not to give me another shot (or to chew on my gutters).

What I learned from this was the using round-nosed pellets on squirrels is inhumane with this particular gun. With a .22 rimfire, round noses seem to work OK on squirrels. But, can't shoot those in my yard.

As for Buck killing squirrels with a "BB gun," now I am beginning to smell something. Rabbits and small birds are nowhere near as tough as squirrels. I would be real surprised it a typical BB gun would shoot clear through a squirrel.

SL1
 

buck460XVR

New member
As I previously stated, no sense continuing a discussion with somebody who just insists that I am a liar.


No where did I call you a liar. I truly believe you THINK you hit the squirrel in both lungs. I'm only saying you didn't, or the squirrel would be dead....regardless of bullet shape.


As for Buck killing squirrels with a "BB gun," now I am beginning to smell something. Rabbits and small birds are nowhere near as tough as squirrels. I would be real surprised it a typical BB gun would shoot clear through a squirrel.


Now, you're calling me a liar, LOL. Talk about the pot callin' the kettle black. First off......one does not need a pass thru to kill a squirrel...if you hit it in the vitals. Shoot one high in the trees with a .410 shotgun and none of the pellets will pass thru, but you still end up with a dead squirrel. Shoot a squirrel in the brains with a BB gun and you don't get a pass thru, but again, you end up with a dead squirrel. When I was a kid, the Crosman Pumpmaster 760 came out and every kid in the small rural town I lived in had one. In the summer, when squirrels and rabbits were out of season, we used 'em on rats at the local dump and in silos when the feed got below the doors and the rats were trapped. Believe me, dump rats are just as hard to kill as any squirrel. Here is a writeup about the pumpmaster from Wikipedia. Read it and then tell me what you smell.......crow maybe?

The Crosman Pumpmaster 760, or Crosman 760 Pumpmaster, is an American-made multi-pump pneumatic Air Gun that is manufactured for target shooting, plinking, and small pest control. The Crosman 760 Pumpmaster is a BB gun with more than 12 million copies sold. It has a caliber of .177 and can shoot up to 625 ft/s. This gun may be used for hunting small pests, up to small game. The 760 Pumpmaster is very accurate for a weapon with a non-rifled barrel, and is capable of hitting a target at ranges of up to 50 yards. Firing a pellet at 600 feet per second (180 m/s), this weapon is able to effectively dispatch small game such as rabbit or squirrel at ranges not extending beyond 20 yards.
 

SL1

New member
Not continuing the discussion.

Only posted the original info so that some folks would have the chance to benefit from it. It was not the EXPECTED result and that is why I posted it.

You obviously can't benefit from it.

My work is done here.

Others can make-up their own minds what to believe, based on what you and I have already written.

SL1
 

FrankenMauser

New member
For a 240...
I'd prefer something along the lines of a RFP or WFN for lead, or a JSP for jacketed.

With rifle cartridges, a round nose generally aids expansion of jacketed bullets (rather than a spitzer profile). But, it doesn't help much with handgun cartridges.

I'd rather have a wide meplat flat point, than a round nose. ...But, accuracy isn't affected much, either way.


After their mention in a recent thread, I've really been eye-balling the Cast Performance 255 gr WFN. It looks like a tasty little treat.
But... I won't pay anything near what Midway wants. I need to find a similar bullet mold, and cast my own.

I suspect that the heavy nose would help maintain stability, but there's no way of knowing, without trying them.
 

Mike / Tx

New member
To the OP,

I am by and far no expert on cast, in fact I only recently in the past year began to shoot them in earnest. I specifically started to pour my own based upon a desire to feed my 454 and not pay the higher prices for bullets which would hold up to the pressures associated with it.

As such I purchased a Lee 452 300RF GC mold and went to town. I found that they put deer and hogs down with authority when pushed to the 1500 - 1650fps range.

Since then I have learned a ton about cast bullets and began to pour them in several other calibers. The overall theme is fit is king and lube is queen. As for fit, it is usually .001-.003 over bore size. THe thing is they need to also fit the cylinder as well. If your cylinder is small than your bore or if you have a small area ahead of the forcing cone where the barrel threads might have been screwed in a bit tight this causes problems.

Other than that I have not found that one type shoots expressly better than another. I have shot RFP, WFN, RN, and SWC's all with very acceptable accuracy out of the same revolvers. Slug your barrels and find the proper size, then play with lubes and you might find that one works better than another in your revolvers or you might find that, like I did, the Alox or mixes of it, will work in them all.

My latest passion has been to put together an alloy which will hold up to the velocities I am shooting and also alloy expansion without being overly brittle and allowing the noses to blow off or separate from the shank. I tested a small batch over the weekend and was VERY pleased with the resulting expansion. Granted this was shot into damp packed sugar sand, but it did what I had hoped for and held together. As far as the differences in the dirt and animal tissue it is a non issue as I now know that at least the noses are malleable enough to flow and not too brittle where they will break off.

P1010011.jpg
 

fishbones182

New member
Mike/tx nice photos. On another note I had shot a hog that was 270lbs at 130 yards with my Winchester 300 mag. The shot went clean through both lungs and out the other side of the pig. There were pieces of lung in the dirt where he initially fell. The hog got up and ran about 100 yards before finally falling and staying put for good. The cover was so thick and wet i would never have found him if it were not for a good blood trail. I have shot hogs and had them run away to only die someplace in the woods when there were no blood trail to follow.
 
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