.410 Failures?...

[seeker_two]

At a recent gun show, I had an interesting discussion with a few other attendees about the effectiveness of the .410 shotgun loads in both long guns and handguns. Quite a few people believe that the .410 buckshot and slug loads are ineffective, while those persons who actually have shot living things with them (including a member here who used a .410 derringer in a SD situation) stated that the load works just fine. Add to that the ballistic charts that show the only difference b/t a .410 shot load and a 12ga. shot load is the number of pellets....velocity ends up being the same....and the discussion gets confusing quick....

Question: Does anyone here have experience showing the .410 buckshot or slug loads failing to be effective? It can be in a handgun or a long gun...just no birdshot. I'm interested in getting both sides of the story here.....

Thanks in advance....

 

[Uncle Buck]

Seeker, good questions and I am sure the debate will rage.

Remember the effective range of the shot.

A friend uses the judge as protection against car-jacking. A .410 (or any gun) at a range of three feet is going to hurt.

I do think the .410 would be effective across the average room. Another round of choice might be better, but like my Dad used to say, "You dance with whom you brought."

If the .410 is the only thing you have, then wishing for something else during a crisis situation does no good. Train with what you have, become effective with what you own.

My judge sits near me when I am in this room and in the living room and bedroom, which are considerably larger, I have other pistols of different calibers.

 

[hardworker]

I've seen deer killed by a single pellet from 410 buckshot. If it's all I had I'd use it and not think twice about it.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've read newspaper accounts of several self-defense shootings using a "Judge" loaded with .410 cartridges (no idea what load). I noticed the following details:

1. The Judge was effective as a self-defense tool insofar as the attacker stopped behaving in a threatening manner and either surrendered or fled.

2. Most of the stops were cases were the attacker was physically capable of continuing to attack but chose to run or give up instead.

3. In the few shoots that had enough details (I specifically remember a shot to the head where the attacker fled), a .45LC would likely have caused a physiological stop that the .410 did not cause.

5. In only one of the cases I read did the Judge caused an immediate physiological stop (the Jerome Ersland shooting) and rendered the robber unconscious. No idea what it was loaded with; but it was a neck shot IIRC.

Practically, the Judge is a lot of size and weight for a 3.5" barrel snub revolver with a 5-shot capacity. For the same size, weight, and price (Taurus lists an MSRP of $813) you have a lot of options that provide more bang for the buck, even if you limit caliber to .45.

The only thing the Judge does that many other pistols can't do is shoot .410 shotgun shells - and while kind of cool, that is still a fairly low utility use out of a 3.5" barrel revolver.

 

[mes227]

Practically, the Judge is a lot of size and weight for a 3.5" barrel snub revolver with a 5-shot capacity. For the same size, weight, and price (Taurus lists an MSRP of $813) you have a lot of options that provide more bang for the buck, even if you limit caliber to .45.

The only thing the Judge does that many other pistols can't do is shoot .410 shotgun shells - and while kind of cool, that is still a fairly low utility use out of a 3.5" barrel revolver.

I have a Governor and I agree. Better choices abound for SD. The reference to someone carrying a Judge in there car to prevent jackings seems like an exception where the .410 SD rounds might a near-ideal choice. I got my Governor as a range toy and I enjoy it very much, and I'm sure that with it loaded with either .45s or .410s I'd be well protected, but for normal SD scenarios I'd pick one of my other guns.

 

[seeker_two]

Thanks for everything so far.....please keep it coming.....

...and I'd also like to hear about experiences with the .410 from long guns, too....

 

[Uncle Buck]

.410 Shotgun, using buckshot, works for me at the farm. I use it in and around the barns because I do not need the extra power blowing holes in my walls.

I have a serious problem with racoons and skunks. I can usually get close (5 - 10 yards) and do away with them.

I have no experience with the slugs.


I have a friend who insist he shot a deer with a .45 Colt that was loaded in a .410 shotgun. I saw the deer and the purported shotgun, but no other evidence.

 

[kozak6]

It's going to be difficult to get both sides of the story.

The .410 hasn't really been advocated for self defense until the advent of the Judge.

 

[t4terrific]

If a .410 slug won't kill, then how would a .38 Special kill?

 

[2damnold4this]

It's easier to tote a J frame with five .38 specials than a Judge with five .410 slugs for about the same power. There is no reason to put a .410 slug in a Judge when it can shoot .45 Colt.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm not going to search for this but some wife shot her fleeing, cheating husband with birdshot in the rear end.

He just got peppered and kept running. She was arrested.

 

[johnbt]

"I've seen deer killed by a single pellet from 410 buckshot."

I've seen deer killed by a single shot from a .22 LR. I've read of bears and moose killed in the far north country by a single shot from a .22 LR. I still don't consider them adequate for day to day use.

Oh, and about the question comparing buckshot to the .38 Spec. Does anyone even make hollowpoint buckshot or semi-wadcutter buckshot?

 

[hardworker]

I'd consider 410 buck out of a shotgun adequate for defense. Too often people imagine themselves in these epic gunfights against bad guys hiding behind car doors and rooftops, and base their gun choices accordingly. I'm not saying 410 is ideal for combat, but for defense I'd rather have a 410 than a 45. A 3 inch 410 has five 36 caliber pellets. That's essentially 5 38's per shot.

And i'm talking about a shotgun, not the judge.

 

[seeker_two]

I'm not going to search for this but some wife shot her fleeing, cheating husband with birdshot in the rear end.

He just got peppered and kept running. She was arrested.

She any relation to the Cheneys?.....


....unless you're talking about near-contact distances, birdshot in any shotgun doesn't count...too shallow in the penetration department....

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I doubt it and he can't run anymore. The lesson is use buckshot for butt shot?

 

[johnbt]

Here are some interesting numbers on shotgun slugs and buckshot.

www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm


The thing about trying to compare 000 buck to .38 Special is that a single 000 pellet only weighs 70 grains or 71. The last .32 ACP ammo I had was Fiocchi and S&B and those bullets were 73 grains.

A typical .38 Special bullet weighs 158 grains. Just something to consider.

 

[pelo801]

The thing about trying to compare 000 buck to .38 Special is that a single 000 pellet only weighs 70 grains or 71. The last .32 ACP ammo I had was Fiocchi and S&B and those bullets were 73 grains

i do agree with this ^, however the other side to that coin is, there are five of them and they are traveling about twice the velocity. 410 out of a long gun is nothing to discount IMO.

 

[seeker_two]

The thing about trying to compare 000 buck to .38 Special is that a single 000 pellet only weighs 70 grains or 71. The last .32 ACP ammo I had was Fiocchi and S&B and those bullets were 73 grains.

So....does that mean one round of .410 000 buckshot would be equivalent to firing a 3-round burst from a .32ACP?......and that a Judge might equal a Skorpion SMG w/ a 15rd. mag?....

 

[chasep255]

This is just my theory but I think that people are more likely to complain about a 410 being ineffective because it is small. Think about it. If you shoot someone with a 12GA 00 buck and they don't go down do you blame 12GA for being ineffective? NO because it is considered at the top in terms of power. You say it was a bad shot or that the assailant was just really tough or something. Now if the same thing happened with a 410 since it is smaller it is much easier to put the blame on it being smaller.

 

[rantingredneck]

A friend of mine who died earlier this year let his young daughter shoot at a doe on their farm when she was little (9 or 10 I think). The doe was there with a couple others and his daughter had never killed a deer. She talked him into walking out there with her and they snuck around the edge of the barn to where the does were probably only 20-30 yds away. He figured she'd miss, he'd console her and then they'd get back inside where it was warm.

She fired one shell of 00 buck from a single shot .410 and dropped two of the does in that herd. He then had some gutting and skinning to do..........

My only experience with it was growing up shooting the same model .410 that my friend's daughter used to kill those two does to kill a mess of squirrels and rabbits. Never shot anything larger with it, but were I carving notches in my gunstock for squirrels I'd have whittled that one down to nothing by now. Rarely did I have to take a second shot.

I've got some 3", 5 pellet 00 buckshot shells from S&B for my H&R .410 and before my wife was comfortable with a handgun I taught her how to use it. I didn't feel like she was underarmed at down the hallway distances.