.400 Legend

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bamaranger

New member
Have we kicked this around yet............?

There is a new cartridge about to be released, the Win .400 Legend, another straight wall number aimed at the states that require same for deer, and of course it will feed and function in a standard AR action to boot.

First off, who names these things? The "Legend" (both flavors) and the rival .360 Buckhammer? Too juvenile for me, I'd much preferred the .405 Auto or the older labels, the .405 SLR. And .360 Remington would have suited me fine as well. The hype claims that the Legend is one of Winchesters best sellers (this being the .350 version). Well, not around here, perhaps elsewhere required by straight case law. Back in 2019 (I searched) a post ran about the .350 Legend and I commented about the gap in cartridge design and no .40 cal............ seems like now we have it. Ballisticaly an improved version of the old Win 401 SLR, much like the .350 runs on the heels of the .35 Rem and betters the old .351 SLR.

With the continued interest in stretching the reach of the AR and long range shooting in general, as well as the overall decline in the interest of hunting, I do not see the Legend family flourishing. One application that comes to mind is Jeff Coopers "Thumper" concept. Cooper wanted essentially an improved, even more compact M1 carbine .....forerunner to the PDW weapons of today. There were attempts to do so by hot rodding the M1 carbine to .45 Win Mag. The .44 Auto mag cartridge was another possible choice. The MP5 Kurtz went the other direction with the 9mm, and the FBI had the MP5 in 10MM for a while. I don't know what the new .400 Legend would do with a very short barrel, but a Commando/XM177 size .400 Legend, with modern materials to lighten it as much as possible might be the Thumper reborn.
 
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stagpanther

New member
I think the trend is towards naming cartridges with names that will make hunters buy them and game fall over dead with a heart attack just by saying the name.
 
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taylorce1

New member
6.8 SPC is the parent case from what I understand. I'm not going to rush out and get one, but I'll bet it'll kill stuff dead.
 
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bamaranger

New member
comparison

The .400L supposedly will drive a 215 gr .40 bullet at 2250 fps , , my source did not give a barrel length. At worst, it will better the 10mm Auto by about 750 fps with nearly comparable bullet weights (200 v. 215 gr) . The 400L is a RIFLE cartridge with considerable more length than the 10mm Auto. Envision a .223 length case, blown out to .400", with a rebated rim. The .400L will better the old .401 SLR by about 500 fps. These are approximations from memory. The .400L on paper will exceed the .30-30, the .350L and the old .35 Rem in power.

Quite a few years ago, long before the Legend series, in a BS session with some pals, I suggested one could open the 7.62x39mm case to accept .40 cal projectiles, run the cartridge through a Krinkov size AK , and have a Soviet Thumper.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Just as Winchester advertised the .401 SL as comparable to .30-40 Krag: 215 gr at 2250 fps is approximately a .30-03. Lower ballistic coefficient, not as long ranged.

Been a while since I heard the Cooper Thumper mentioned.
 
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Shadow9mm

New member
Most of these cartridges were designed for hunters in states that have straight wall restrictions on their rifle cartridges, no bottle neck rifle cartridges for deer.

Most common and popular are the 350 legend and 450 bushmaster. From what i have seen and read, 350 legend can be perceived as under powered, and 450 bushmaster as overkill both on the animal and the shoulder. So the idea of a 40 or 10mm splitting the difference might sell.
 
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Scorch

New member
Sounds like all the firearms manufacturers have hired a bunch of marketers instead of people who know something about firearms. Give it a cool name, people will buy it!! Maybe. Until they figure out thet've been lied to.

Like the 22 Nosler and the 224 Valkyrie and several other new cartridges developed over the past 20 years, I see nothing of interest there, all smoke and mirrors, little of substance at all. And now Nosler and whoever came up with the Valkyrie are upset people won't take them seriously. People who have a special application that requires what the Legend is offering may buy it, but nobody ever made money selling to 2% of the population.
 
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MarkCO

New member
tangolima said:
How does it compare to AR in 10mm? .400 legend more potent?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

As I have both a short gas tube and long gas tube DI 10mm AR (and a 16" .41 Magnum), I am probably one of maybe 5 folks that can answer that (based on their reported numbers) actual chrono numbers. With the same weight bullets, it is about 750 fps faster than a 10mm optimized for a 16" barrel and about 500 fps faster than .41Mag from a 16" barrel. So it is WELL beyond the 10mm/.41 Mag power level.

I am a big fan of .40 caliber, but I am resisting. I have a nice .35Rem and a 45-70. I don't need this for any hunting laws. I already ditched all of my large bore AR15 calibers as well.
 
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tangolima

New member
MarkCO said:
As I have both a short gas tube and long gas tube DI 10mm AR (and a 16" .41 Magnum), I am probably one of maybe 5 folks that can answer that (based on their reported numbers) actual chrono numbers. With the same weight bullets, it is about 750 fps faster than a 10mm optimized for a 16" barrel and about 500 fps faster than .41Mag from a 16" barrel. So it is WELL beyond the 10mm/.41 Mag power level.



I am a big fan of .40 caliber, but I am resisting. I have a nice .35Rem and a 45-70. I don't need this for any hunting laws. I already ditched all of my large bore AR15 calibers as well.
Click to expand...
That makes sense. It is a rifle round with locked action. 10mm is pistol round, probably with direct blow back action.

Hunting laws are funny, like gun control laws. I can understand not allowing too small calibers. No bottle necked cartridges? It is what it is.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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std7mag

New member
When i was looking for a new 7mm-08 last year (maybe the year before) the only new rifles available were either in 6.5CM or 350 Legend.
Hard NOT to be best sellers when the manufacturers only make those cartridges available.

I'll stick with my tried & true, "obsolete" cartridges.

Maybe you can use the old Winchester 32 SLR cartridge and make it 30 caliber. :rolleyes:
 
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105kw

New member
Part of the problem with the regulations for straight side Cartridges, is that some of the States have a max case length of 1.8 inches.
A regular at the LGS, was heading back home to deer hunt, and was stuck with .357mag, and .44mag without buying a new rifle due to the length restriction.
I believe he was headed to Ohio.
 
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Shadow9mm

New member
105kw said:
Part of the problem with the regulations for straight side Cartridges, is that some of the States have a max case length of 1.8 inches.
A regular at the LGS, was heading back home to deer hunt, and was stuck with .357mag, and .44mag without buying a new rifle due to the length restriction.
I believe he was headed to Ohio.
Click to expand...

For public land use, Indiana is still as follows https://www.in.gov/dnr/fish-and-wildlife/hunting-and-trapping/hunting-trapping-guide/deer-hunting-questions-and-answers/#Equipment

Equipment on Public Land

Rifle cartridges for public lands (state and federal property) must meet the following requirements:

Fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger,
Have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches, and
Have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches
Click to expand...
 
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ernie8

New member
I made a 400 Bandit [ the same thing ] about 2 years ago to go with my line of straight wall Bandit cartridges that started about 20 years ago , the .357 , .44 , .45 and .50 [ never did a 30 cal as that would be a 30 carbine ] . The .357 Bandit became the .350 Legend . My 400 Bandit runs in an Ar-15 [ as well as a bolt rifle ] and does 2150 fps with a 200 grain bullet in 16 inches . I never did much with it as it only adds about 10% over the .357 Bandit and the cases are much harder to make . The first type was made from a 303 Brit case with a 6.8 rim size . The 2nd was made from a 220 swift and was better . There is no way to " blow out " a .223 case to a .40 . I do not see how they could use a 6.8 case as the head [ .428 ] is too small to have a good neck thickness [ for case mouth seating ] and not enough taper [ ..424 ] for good feed and free extraction , it is cutting it real close . The modified .220 swift is a .440 head to .428 neck and makes a longer case [ 1.797 ] . A .444 with not run in an AR-15 .
 
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reddog81

New member
I'm not surprised. Here in Iowa the 350 Legend has taken off. Other than .223 brass, 350L brass is the most common rifle brass I find lying around at the range.

However the gap that this round fills is kind of narrow. Between 350L and 450 BM it seems like either of those should be able to accomplish whatever this new round does and do it on the AR platform.
 
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bamaranger

New member
interesting

Here in AL, the only .350L I see is unsold boxes on the shelves! The 350L was the ONLY cartridge available during the extreme ammo crunch with Biden, BLM and covid. It just wasn't selling here, as near as I could tell. I don't think I've ever seen .450BM for sale locally, and have never found a spent case.

I live very close public range. The most common spent brass is 5.56mm and 9mm these days.
 
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jmr40

New member
.444 Marlin does it harder, faster, heavier, and with more readily available projectiles...
Click to expand...

True, but you can't chamber it in an AR-15 rifle.

I've debated buying an upper to convert one of my AR's to something else for short range deer hunting. While I've not put in the effort to fully explore everything the 6.5 Grendel is the one that looks most promising to me. Although the 350L looks like a good option too. At least partly because ammo is everywhere.

But then I keep coming back to the fact that a 60-75 gr 223 softpoint will kill any deer as dead as a 458 WM at the ranges I'd use it. So why bother.

The 6.5 Grendel would be better for bigger game and/or longer ranges, but I have much better bolt rifle options for that.
 
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bamaranger

New member
AR

I went thru the same mental process. Pondered building an AR deer rifle, thought the Grendel might be the route to go (standard receiver size). There was no Legend family and the really big bores seemed a bit much, especially as I wanted the rifle to be as light and compact as possible.

For whatever reason, the 350L did not appeal once it appeared, perhaps mainly because I had decided I had plenty of conventional sporters in adequate cartridges. My desire for an AR deer rifle has faded, but were I to do it now, it may well be the 400L I'd pursue......I've always been interested in new cartridges....the 10mm rang my bell when first announced, I had (still do) a 5mm Rimfire Mag as a teen.
 
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