40 caliber?

[Aguila Blanca]

Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.

Any time I see this statement, my OCD kicks in. I just looked up the specs for a bunch of the better-known brands of .40 S&W and 10mm ammunition. I'm just not seeing anything to support the above statement.

By caliber:

And sorted by muzzle energy:

If half or more of 10mm is loaded to .40 S&W levels, the sorted table should have a bunch of the 10mm loads interspersed with the .40 S&W loads. But that's not what the data show.

 

[Forte S+W]

To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.

Honestly, the .40 S&W table is missing several of the more powerful defensive loads like Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Remington Ultimate Defense, Hornady Custom XTP, etc and is mostly Target Loads. (Seriously, who uses Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle as an example of what any cartridge is capable of?)
Furthermore, Target Loads for the 10mm Auto are conveniently excluded, why ever could that be?

Last but not least, there's no mention of what pistols were used to get those numbers, but I have a hunch that it was also slanted in favor of 10mm Auto by doing something like shooting .40 S&W out of a Glock 23 while the 10mm was probably shot out of a gun with a longer barrel like a Glock 40.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I made that chart. I went to The Sportsmans Guide web site, because I know their ammo listings include advertised muzzle velocity. (They also include muzzle energy, but their numbers -- while usually on the mark -- are occasionally way off base, so the ME column is calculated by Excel).

I just picked what they had listed, skipping over what I consider to be off-brand (stuff like TulAmmo). If it's slanted, it's slanted by what the market drives SGC to list, not by any bias in selection.

For the record, I am definitely not a big (or even small) fan of the 10mm. I'm a 1911 guy. If I'm a fan of anything, it's .45 ACP. I do own a CZ40, and I have a .40 slide and barrel for a Para-Ordnance 1911. That's about it. I really have no dog in this fight, but my experience has been that the actual numbers don't support the claim that nearly all commercial 10mm is nothing more than .40 S&W in a longer case.

 

[Forte S+W]

Ah, I see. In the future, you may want to use more of the same ammo for both cartridges for a more fair, apples to apples comparison, as it looks like cherry-picking when you mix and match random types of ammo.

Also, if 10mm Auto really is consistently loaded hotter than .40 S&W, then that's all the more reason to do direct comparisons between say Federal HST in both cartridges, rather than assorted FMJ Target Loads intermingled with JHP SD Loads.

 

[ballardw]

For fun, I once did an analysis of the scores from several GSSF matches. GSSF match scores are posted online and GSSF has a category called Heavy Metal. Competitors in that category must shoot a pistol chambered in .45ACP, .45GAP or 10mm. There is also a category called Amateur Civilian and most shooters in that category compete with 9mm pistols although it’s legal to compete with any caliber in that category. Both categories use exactly the same course of fire.

Just for giggles in the analysis, was there any way to tell which of the two courses was shot first? Could there be improvement from having been through the course once?

 

[jr24]

Well, I hope not. I have a .40 coming later this week, with a .357 Sig barrel too.

Good thing I reload. Speaking of, gotta dig the dies and brass out and start prepping, been a good few years since I've had a .40.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Ah, I see. In the future, you may want to use more of the same ammo for both cartridges for a more fair, apples to apples comparison, as it looks like cherry-picking when you mix and match random types of ammo.

How's this?

 

[JohnKSa]

To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.

Honestly, the .40 S&W table is missing several of the more powerful defensive loads like Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Remington Ultimate Defense, Hornady Custom XTP, etc and is mostly Target Loads. (Seriously, who uses Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle as an example of what any cartridge is capable of?)

Furthermore, Target Loads for the 10mm Auto are conveniently excluded, why ever could that be?

Last but not least, there's no mention of what pistols were used to get those numbers, but I have a hunch that it was also slanted in favor of 10mm Auto by doing something like shooting .40 S&W out of a Glock 23 while the 10mm was probably shot out of a gun with a longer barrel like a Glock 40.

As far as I can tell, that chart is based on manufacturer provided information which lays to rest some of the concerns about barrel length differences.

As far as the .40S&W chart missing several of the more powerful defensive loads—let’s accept that it is. By the same token, we must admit, if we want to be fair, that there are a lot of really hot 10mm loadings missing too.

As for the question about using WWB or American Eagle as an example of what a cartridge is capable of, it’s important to remember what the claim was. It wasn’t about what either cartridge was capable of, it was a blanket assertion that “Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.”.

In 2008, I did a survey of every single .40S&W and 10mm load I could find on the internet at the time. There was definitely overlap between the two cartridges, however it was absolutely clear that overall, the 10mm was pretty consistently loaded hotter than .40S&W. Here’s the data.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304838

I’m not really interested in doing the survey again, but the information is out there for anyone who wants to make it a project. Clearly from what I found back then, and also from what I see at this point, the claim that “over half” of all 10mm loadings out there are identical to .40S&W will be difficult to defend. Is there performance overlap between the two cartridges? Certainly! But in general, if you look at the overall picture, 10mm tends to be loaded hotter than .40S&W.

 

[Forte S+W]

Much better.

There are definitely some loads on there that are more in line with what I'd expect from proper 10mm Auto loads, mixed in with a lot of the typical examples of FBI Loads that are just barely hotter than .40 S&W, like those Federal American Eagle and Winchester Ranger Loads which are only a mere 30fps higher in velocity in 10mm Auto, compared to the Federal Syntech or SIG V-Crown which is actually full-power 10mm.

When folks say that a lot of 10mm Auto factory loads are basically just .40 S&W, they're talking about a lot of the sorts of loads seen there. 25-50fps higher velocity is so marginal that the difference could easily be the result of slightly longer test barrels rather than legitimately hotter loads, as you'd expect to see more from a load that's actually hotter. So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.

 

[JohnKSa]

Just for giggles in the analysis, was there any way to tell which of the two courses was shot first? Could there be improvement from having been through the course once?

There's no prescribed order in which to shoot the stages and nothing in the scores indicate which order the competitors chose.

However, the stages are the same from year to year, so it's not like there would be a significant benefit in the course of a single match in terms of which order one chooses to shoot the match or different categories.

So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.

Well, I know for a fact that the 10mm's feelings won't be hurt, no matter what anyone says about it. Hopefully no one here is going to get hurt feelings on its behalf.

There are certainly a wide range of loadings for 10mm. If you look at the graphs in the thread I linked to, the same is true to an even much greater extent, for the .357Mag.

Any time that happens the only way it can be true is if there are mild loadings available since there are top limits that really can't be surpassed. I tend to think of it as versatility rather than as a shortcoming, but I guess some people really have problems with the idea that not every ammo selection on the market is loaded to absolute max.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When folks say that a lot of 10mm Auto factory loads are basically just .40 S&W, they're talking about a lot of the sorts of loads seen there. 25-50fps higher velocity is so marginal that the difference could easily be the result of slightly longer test barrels rather than legitimately hotter loads, as you'd expect to see more from a load that's actually hotter. So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.

But that's not the statement I was responding to when I created that chart.

Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.

Pick anything in that chart that's in the same brand and series, and the same bullet weight, and see if there's even one that's identical for both .40 and 10mm. The second iteration of the chart is sorted by brand to make the comparison easier.

I also don't think comparing velocity is the best criterion. In some cases, the 10mm is loaded with a heavier bullet. I think muzzle energy is the better comparator.

 

[JustJake]

To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.

If that were true, the chart would've included 10mm ammo produced by Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap.

'Course, being so-called "fringe" and "boutique" ammo companies, they somehow don't really count when discussing the fps/fpe specs of "real" 10mm ammo.

 

[dajowi]

At the club where I'm an RSO the four semi-auto handgun cartridges that I see the least are .32, .40 SW, 357 Sig, and the 10mm.

 

[Ignition Override]

If somebody is trying hard to Sell you a gun which is Not in .40 S&W,

Then in That situation, they will likely suggest that the .40 S&W is, or will soon be dead. $$