40 and 45

[jmr40]

I've read everything I could find on the topic for 40 years. I've owned and shot them all. I've never come across anything that convices me that the end results are any different between 45 and 9mm. The fact that no clear winner has ever been determined in 100+ years of side by side testing is enough to convince me there is absolutey no difference. Yes, 45 does some things better, 9mm does some things better, but you cannot pick the exact conditions you will find yourself in when you need your gun.

The 10mm round is the only semi-auto round that offers any clear advantage. Lots of folks see the 40 as a compromise between 9mm and 45. It is better than either by a small margin. From a personal perspecive, not enough better to justify the added cost when I already own 10mm. But I can completely understand why it has become the preferred LE chambering.

I carry and use 45 and 9mm for SD from human threats and trust either completely and equally. For possible large animal threats the nod goes to hot loaded 10mm. I have nothing against 40, have owned them in the past, but cannot justify having a 40 when I own a 10mm that can be loaded down to 40 levels if I so wish.

 

[NJgunowner]

I like the .40, but I have to agree with jmr40 on the 10mm. I still have my p226 .40, but I'm considering getting the conversion to 9mm so I don't need to keep buying ammo for it.

My own thought is the 10mm might be the most versatile semi-auto round available. Can be loaded similar to a .40 with the same size round, or loaded hot enough to defend against all 4 legged threats in the lower 48. Heck I was reading that it's becoming popular in Alaska as a sidearm round even against the bears they have up there.

.40 vs .45? I'd probably say .40. Cheaper and can typically hold several more rounds than the average 8 or so from your typical .45.

The .45 despite its popularity is a round I can't see a need for. But that's because I'd rather have a 10mm. (i know that makes me the odd ball)

 

[Mark54g]

Here's what you need to know about the difference between .40S&W and .45ACP.

The .45ACP round has the most misinformation applied to it compared to any other round. The .40 S&W has more misinformation applied to it compared to the .45ACP.


Get it? Facts and forums often find each other, but only in passing .

 

[BIG P]

IMO its all in what you want from your round. I want .5 holes the 45 gives them to me. 40's a ok round too. I just prefer the 45ACP.

 

[vaquero aleman]

I always enjoyed the 40 caliber pistols that I have had. I also enjoyed the G20 and G29 that I had. There are several brands of 10mm that are very close to 40 S&W velocities. And we all know that the 10 can get pretty hot. I liked the fact that if you have a 40 caliber pistol that the chances are you can shoot 357 Sig from the same gun. And, of course, there are many conversion barrels for 40 to 9 so you get both with one gun. But I finally decided on the G21 because I can go from a 800 + or - fps cartridge up to around 1300 + or - fps with a 45 Super round and always have a 45 caliber bullet going down range. I would call that fairly versatile. I would also add that my hands are on the medium to small size and I am suprised that my Gen 3 21 doesn't feel as overly big as I expected. Fits pretty darn good!

She's a sexy beast ain't she! I wonder if they make a bikini for a G21?

 

[Dashunde]

Tell me about running 45 Super through the G21?
Part swaps? Details?

 

[vaquero aleman]

45 Super from a G21

First off, yes, you can fire 45 Super from a stock G21. I have done this and after seeing the results:
I absolutely do not recommend using the stock barrel.

Buffallo Bore 45 Super 185gr @ 1300fps, Fired from a stock G21 4.6" barrel
The wavy lines are a crumple mark and there is a slight bulge under each line.
I also shot this ammo from a LWD barrel and it did not affect the brass.

An aftermarket barrel, 45 ACP(they don't make a 45 Super specific barrel), take your pick, will have full chamber support and this is the critical part of shooting super out of a 21. I use Lone Wolf Distributor's barrels for my 21 because they are the most economical.

Lone Wolf Dist, KKM, Storm Lake, Jarvis and Barsto are all good choices. I don't have an opinion on EFK as far as thier barrels are concerned. But, if you can find one of these barrels at midwayusa.com, I would recommend buying there, Shipping and service is way better than the makers.

The next step, but not as critical, is to upgrade the recoil assembly. I am currently using the Wolff steel guide rod/22# recoil spring. I also have a 20 and 24# spring for experimentation. I had used a recoil buffer but I believe that it caused FTF's so I took it out. I have considered a recoil reduction system but have not made the purchase so I don't have an opinion on those. I was looking at the "Sprinco Corbon" 45 acp model, Its around $90.

Wilson Combat recoil buffer, started splitting at about 150 rounds.

I would equate 45 Super to 10mm, except for the diameter of the bullet. The ballistics of both are very similar. At the moment Buffalo Bore is the only major player that I know of loading 45 Super. You can find thier ammo at midwayusa.com or buffalobore.com, Midway sells it cheaper. I traded emails with Underwood Ammo and he stated that 45 Super might be coming up soon, so I would check on them from time to time. You can get the recoil assembly at midway also, or directly from LWD. glockparts.com also sells these items and may be quicker to respond to your order.

I would consider using a ported barrel or a well designed compensator(google it, lot to read about comps). The ported barrels offer better ease of use. Once you thread lock a comp then you have to deal with that issue, but the comp offers better recoil control. And I personally feel that the recoil, of the 45 Super, is no worse than 10mm, Since I had both a G20 and G29, I have experience with the 10mm.

If all of this seems a little too much, then check out http://acecustom45s.com/ http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/, but I don't think they deal in Glock kits anymore. Ace Custom had a 45 Super specific barrel.

***I am in no way endorsing Buffalo Bore, they just happen to be the only company selling 45 Super***

Buffalo Bore Ammunition http://www.buffalobore.com/:

10mm: 155gr TAC XP 1500fps, 180gr JHP 1350fps, 200gr JHP 1200fps, 220gr HC 1200fps.

45 Super: 185gr JHP 1300fps, 200gr JHP 1200fps, 230gr FMJ 1100fps, 230gr JHP 1100fps, 255gr HC 1075fps.


Shooting 45 Super won't make you a Super-Model, but it should leave you feeling a little more Super.

 

[Dashunde]

Awesome info, Thanks!

 

[vaquero aleman]

De Nada. If your feeling really adventurous, check out 460rowland.com

 

[Roland Thunder]

I did own a .40 (Glock 23) and traded it for a .45 (M&P). I am much more accurate shooting a .45 than I was shooting the .40

 

[Mystro]

I own them all. I love the 45acp in a 1911 and never feel under gunned. It's accurate and pleasant to shoot. That said, I like the 40s&w in every other gun., especially hi capacity mags. It's 500ft/lbs is powerfully enough to be a trail gun and can be stuffed in the ultra compact Glock 27. I use to hate the 40s&w being a die hard 10mm guy, but after realizing the power and compactness, I now love the round. It has replaced all my 9mm and makes the 9mm look very inferior.
If I want real power I use a 10mm but it comes at a cost of compactness.

 

[BoogieMan]

40S&W Glaser Blue 105gr.Frag 1449 490 6" 5.34 sec. 91%est. 4" S&W
.40S&W Cor-Bon 135gr.JHP 1300 507 9.8" n/a 96% 4" S&W
.40S&W MagSafe Defender +P 84gr.Frag> 1800 n/a 13" n/a 91% 4" S&W
.40S&W Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP 950 361 15" 8.32 sec. 89% 4" S&W
.40S&W Federal Hydra-Shok 155gr.JHP 1140 448 13.3" n/a 94% 4" S&W
.40S&W Rem.Golden Saber 165gr.JHP 1150 485 12" n/a 94% 4" S&W
.40S&W Remington 155gr.JHP 1140 447 n/a 8.40 sec. 86%est. 4" S&W
.45ACP Glaser Blue 140gr.Frag. 1355 571 n/a 4.72 sec. n/a 5" Colt
.45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr.JHP 819 366 13.3" 8.40 sec. 94% 5" Colt
.45ACP MagSafe Defender 96gr.Frag. 1660 n/a 10" n/a 93%est. 5" Colt
.45ACP Federal 185gr.JHP 1001 411 13.6" 9.24 sec. 87% 5" Colt
.45ACP Cor-bon +P 185gr.JHP 1150 544 11.3" n/a 92% 5" Colt
.45ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 230 FMJ 839 360 27" 13.84 sec. 63% 5" Colt
.45ACP CCI-Speer 200gr.JHP 975 422 9.4" n/a 88% 5" Colt
.45ACP Remington +P 185gr.JHP 1129 519 17.1" 7.98 sec. 86% 5" Colt


Chart didnt past e well. Colums are Manuf/ projectile/ FPS/ FT Lbs/ penetration/ % of one shot stop. These are numbers from ChuckHawks.com
The percentage at the end is one shot stop. If your looking for defense the rounds are so close it would only make sense to go with the one that holds the most rounds. The .40 is a little faster has similar penetration and equal ft lbs of energy/percent of stoping (within reason)

 

[LockedBreech]

BoogieMan, I appreciate your contribution to the thread, but the One Shot Stop statistics are largely discredited these days. No handgun round is a one-shot-stopper unless it disables the central nervous system. That's heart, head, or spine. 9mm, .40, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, and .45 GAP are all capable of reaching these critical parts with good consistency. The caliber debate is much more a matter of choice, feel, personal comfort, favorite guns, and size of wound cavity for bleed-out than it is the actual ability of the rounds to incapacitate if well-aimed.

I prefer the .40 for higher capacity than the .45 and more energy on target than 9x19. It's my favorite round in full-size pistols.

I have shot a decent bit of .45 in 3 guns (two 1911s and a Springfield XD) along with a LOT of .40 (thousands through my PX4, hundreds through Glock G22, a few others I can't think of). To me, they feel literally identical. I'm a bigger guy (6'5" 250) and the recoil of the two is just not difference enough for me to be bothered by.

Interestingly enough, I started out shooting a .40 and I am finding 9mm to be my most difficult caliber. I've shot it in an Stoeger Cougar and a Ruger SR9, mostly. It doesn't hurt and it's not harsh, but it "pops" up a little bit. Not a snap like .40, but the pop for me is more distracting. I'm guessing I'm an extreme minority there.

So, yeah, .40 for me since it hits the sweet spot, but I like the other rounds a lot in specific applications. I like 9 for tiny concealed guns and I like .45 for 1911s. Just feels right in those platforms.

 

[5RWill]

As probably mentioned before shot placement will come before energy/force/power of the round. Secondly humans are capable of extraordinary things, even in the vitals people have not gone down instantly before, there are strange cases.

Here's Shootout report showing morgue pictures, X-Rays the works. Note: It is very graphic This is not to discredit the 40 in anyway mainly to show that the assailant took many shots before going down. Granted the 5 shots that didn't penetrate well didn't cause incapacitating injuries it's still 5 shots to the torso, that still equates to some blood lost.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Lesson's Learned In Combat by Paul Gardner

 

[droptrd]

I doubt bad guys could tell the difference If they were shot with a 40 or 45....

Neither one is a guaranteed one shot knock down killer.

That said, my 45 has a tiny bit less perceived recoil than my 40s.

I shoot my beretta 96 best....so idunno....

 

[Big_Bullet]

Ammo not guns.

He asked about ammo comparison and got a lot of gun info. I have both calibers like many others do. The 45 was designed to be a slow moving large chunk of lead that pushes a man down for the count. The 40 was designed, to be a less recoiling 10mm. The 40 is slightly larger than a 9mm, and the 45 is much larger than the 40. I personally can't say that I would feel nearly as confident carrying 14 rounds of 40 over 7 rounds of 45. Stand the 40 next to the 9mm. Then set a 45 next to both of them. The 45 is a big bullet, no pun intended. Big bullets stop big men better than smaller bullets. Without a doubt, the 45 is much more of a man stopper than the 40. Is that steam I hear coming out of your ears men?

BB

 

[LockedBreech]

He asked about ammo comparison and got a lot of gun info. I have both calibers like many others do. The 45 was designed to be a slow moving large chunk of lead that pushes a man down for the count. The 40 was designed, to be a less recoiling 10mm. The 40 is slightly larger than a 9mm, and the 45 is much larger than the 40. I personally can't say that I would feel nearly as confident carrying 14 rounds of 40 over 7 rounds of 45. Stand the 40 next to the 9mm. Then set a 45 next to both of them. The 45 is a big bullet, no pun intended. Big bullets stop big men better than smaller bullets. Without a doubt, the 45 is much more of a man stopper than the 40. Is that steam I hear coming out of your ears men?

BB

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 9mm is .355-358 caliber.

That means the .40 is as much bigger than the 9mm than the .45 is bigger than the .40 - .05. Not "slightly bigger" and "much larger" as you suggested. I just stood the three next to each other and while there's no doubting the .45 is a big fella, it seems about as much larger than the .40 as the .40 is the 9.

Right? What am I missing?

No steam in these ears because your claim is unproven. The .40 has every bit the track record the .45 does in putting bad folks down, and also is often a better barrier penetrator than the .45, depending on bullet design.

I trust and enjoy all the common service calibers 9x19 and up.

 

[SRH78]

I guess the 45 is also "without a doubt" "much better" than the 357 magnum or 10mm? For that matter, I guess it also better than a 44 magnum?

Bullet size/diameter is far from the only factor that determines the effectiveness of a cartridge.

 

[BoogieMan]

I think you could argue this for eternity. I would have little fear carrying (not that I am allowed in NJ) anything larger than a 38. There have been an awful lot of bodies pulled from the marshes in SJ and the schuykill river with a single .22 round in them. Slow x heavy= terminal force or fast x light= terminal force. If you want one shot kill on every round than carry a 30-06. (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37275-55.html)
The better argument might be is a hollow point will penetrate heavy clothing and still expand properly.