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.38spl Long Range Ballistic Stability
- Thread starter B. Lahey
- Start date
It's relevant because it is one of the facts of the case. How would it not be relevant?I still don't get the relevance.
Since the bullet entry showed evidence of yawing, how could bullet yaw not have anything to do with the case?
How are you using the terms "relevant" and "having anything to do" with something? The way I commonly see those terms used, it is self-evident how bullet yaw is relevant and has something to do with the case.
"Relevance" meaning why is it important exactly how it struck, and more important than that it struck. Someone thinks it's important that the bullet was yawing but ain't clarificated as to why? (How's that for English?)
But a bullet yawing at that distance is not uncommon and can be caused for any number of reasons (struck a leaf, or a fly, a strong gust of breeze 150 yards out, etc.) But I have not seen one whit as to why the bullet yawing is important to the case.
Except that possibly the bullet could have struck something that altered it's original trajectory and the subsequent yaw changed it's course to where it struck the child. Implying that...except for that unintentional yaw the bullet would not have hit.
Folks have done and shown research on bullet yaw at various distances, etc. But not one word that I see on why it was critical in this case.
Maybe it's not important to the case. Maybe I just don't see what others have seen in these contributions.
Don't worry about it John.
tipoc
But a bullet yawing at that distance is not uncommon and can be caused for any number of reasons (struck a leaf, or a fly, a strong gust of breeze 150 yards out, etc.) But I have not seen one whit as to why the bullet yawing is important to the case.
Except that possibly the bullet could have struck something that altered it's original trajectory and the subsequent yaw changed it's course to where it struck the child. Implying that...except for that unintentional yaw the bullet would not have hit.
Folks have done and shown research on bullet yaw at various distances, etc. But not one word that I see on why it was critical in this case.
Maybe it's not important to the case. Maybe I just don't see what others have seen in these contributions.
Don't worry about it John.
tipoc
I had a friend that was injured in a similar manner, but circumstances were very different.
We had a facility that was located maybe 75 degrees behind a shooting range and approximately 900 yards distance from the pistol part of the range. Note that the rifle section of the range was situated at a more different angle.
My buddy was working about 20 ft elevation on an open structure and facing away from the range. He was hit on the belt by what turned out to be a 230 gr slug from a 45 ACP.
It left a bruise under his belt that was between a quarter and fifty cent size less than 5 minutes after impact. The bullet did not penetrate his body.
I have personally witnessed a shooter trying to master a large caliber handgun and shooting some 11 feet over the intended target due to flinch. Distance was 60 yards.
The outcome of my friends case was accidental. I did not agree at the time, but have accepted the ruling. Note: the bullet hit head on without evidence of a tumble.
After the incident with my friend, the range built a concrete wall to cover any future possibilities of this occurring again. The range closed down years ago due to development in the area and now has dwellings and commercial building in its place.
We had a facility that was located maybe 75 degrees behind a shooting range and approximately 900 yards distance from the pistol part of the range. Note that the rifle section of the range was situated at a more different angle.
My buddy was working about 20 ft elevation on an open structure and facing away from the range. He was hit on the belt by what turned out to be a 230 gr slug from a 45 ACP.
It left a bruise under his belt that was between a quarter and fifty cent size less than 5 minutes after impact. The bullet did not penetrate his body.
I have personally witnessed a shooter trying to master a large caliber handgun and shooting some 11 feet over the intended target due to flinch. Distance was 60 yards.
The outcome of my friends case was accidental. I did not agree at the time, but have accepted the ruling. Note: the bullet hit head on without evidence of a tumble.
After the incident with my friend, the range built a concrete wall to cover any future possibilities of this occurring again. The range closed down years ago due to development in the area and now has dwellings and commercial building in its place.
Locate the book: "Fast & Fanct revolver shooting by Ed. McGivern
He regulary demonstrated using a 4" barrel S&W, for putting six rounds into the the standard Olympic target [1920 /;30 era] @ 200 yds.
When the .357Mag was finalized, he shot same target @ 600 yds.
Very interesting reading from that time.
Yes, it is possible.
He regulary demonstrated using a 4" barrel S&W, for putting six rounds into the the standard Olympic target [1920 /;30 era] @ 200 yds.
When the .357Mag was finalized, he shot same target @ 600 yds.
Very interesting reading from that time.
Yes, it is possible.
I have a Rossi .44 LA rifle that, with a certain brand of ammo, keyholes and completely misses a pallet-sized (44"x48") target backer at 25 yards. Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, Jerry Miculek, many others routinely shot long range with .38s. As a kid I tried to emulate these guys with a Crosman 38T, a CO2 pellet gun like a S&W, on Little Green Army Men and assorted birds, rats and other targets of opportunity. Surprising what you can do with a handgun and some practice. If you can spot your misses and hold off for the difference, that gong way out there will ring.
riverrat38
New member
There are two vertical angles that a bullet fired into the air can impact a target at all ranges except the maximum range. The one everyone is talking about, and a much more vertical one. A bullet fired 80 degrees to the horizontal, for example, would go up a long ways and return to ground, or someone on the ground. It would be mostly in free fall when it hit someone. If the bullet remained perfectly stabilized for the whole flight, the spin axis would remain angled upward at 80 degrees to the ground. That is what stability means, conservation of the angular momentum vector. Both rotational speed (RPM) and axis direction are conserved. That means that the spin axis and the direction of the bullet are greatly different in this example. The bullet would strike the person nose up at the same 80 degrees to the horizon while the bullet is moving downward at an angle nearly vertical. This would only happen if the bullet is fully stabilized. If not, it would likely tumble and strike the target in a random orientation angle. In neither case would the bullet come down with the nose forward, that is, in the direction of travel, except by chance in the case of tumbling.
Best,
Rick
Best,
Rick
Last edited:
jackmoser65
New member
Depends on the bullet. A full wadcutter begins losing stability at 50 yards. A cast WFN at 100 to 200 yards. A good LFN or 173 grain Keith bullet should be stable at 500 yards.
Bob Wright
New member
As a matter of interest, the late Col. Charles Askins performed some very long range shots with a .44 Magnum, I believe a Model 29 Smith & Wesson.
His trial shooting was conducted by using creosoted poles that could be raised, placing a target that remained at ground level, more or less, and raising the other as an aiming point. His object was to see how high he had to aim to hit the paper target at 600 yards. (I forget the publications, but the article was entitled "Elmer's Little Mortar.")
As I recalled the aiming point was sixty-three feet above the target. This with a .44 Magnum.
Bob Wright
His trial shooting was conducted by using creosoted poles that could be raised, placing a target that remained at ground level, more or less, and raising the other as an aiming point. His object was to see how high he had to aim to hit the paper target at 600 yards. (I forget the publications, but the article was entitled "Elmer's Little Mortar.")
As I recalled the aiming point was sixty-three feet above the target. This with a .44 Magnum.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
New member
For whatever its worth, I recently had breakfast at a MacDonald's and met an acquaintance there. He had a bag of spent bullets in a plastic ZipLok bag. Most had slanted noses, some very little deformation.
These, he told me, they had found in or on folk's roofs, he being a roofing contractor. A couple of JHPs had straight slants on the nose, and noticeable skidding (abrasion) marks. Apparently had been fired up into the air for celebration and had come down vertically. The slope of the nose indicated to me the lack of spin.
Bob Wright
These, he told me, they had found in or on folk's roofs, he being a roofing contractor. A couple of JHPs had straight slants on the nose, and noticeable skidding (abrasion) marks. Apparently had been fired up into the air for celebration and had come down vertically. The slope of the nose indicated to me the lack of spin.
Bob Wright
The BBC crew that interviewed Bradbury and I did not end up using that video in their documentary. I wish it had made the cut, razor edged as my interview was, but they found a bunch of 11 year olds in Florida sentenced to death by human sacrifice to alligators or what have you; our case lost luster in the comparison. Tyre is presently pursuing a Petition for Post Conviction Relief and I wish him the best of luck.
This case left some scar tissue. Ouch.
This case left some scar tissue. Ouch.
The video links from before don't work any more, here's fresh ones. The reporter in these, Suzanne Spencer, was on top of it, fully functioning brain, sharp as hell, somewhat unusual for media. I guess she's in Milwaukee now, hopefully doing courts/crime because she do it to it.
https://youtu.be/YswZql5oWQQ
https://youtu.be/1VobCv1LPk8
https://youtu.be/YswZql5oWQQ
https://youtu.be/1VobCv1LPk8