.380 bullet question...opinions?

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omegapd

New member
Hey All,

I don't want to debate the .380 caliber as a self defense round. That's been beaten to death and back. Some people's perceived need of a larger, more powerful round don't necessarily meet the requirements of another persons...

That said and out of the way, a lot of folks prefer FMJ in .380 because penetration is (supposedly) spotty with hollowpoints.

I went through a box of WWB Winclean rounds the other day. I noticed that they have a flat tip, similar to a semi-wadcutter bullet. Would you think that these would be a better choice for the FMJ crowd? Kinda like the same way that the SWC in .38 would be a better choice between the old lead round nose? I'm thinking that the meplat (think thats what it's called- the flat point) would do a bit more damage than the rounded nose .380...

I also think that these rounds (lead bullet with a brass enclosed base) would perform much differently than a FMJ. Maybe deforming more after it hits something, but I'm not sure on that.

Anybody got any opinions? The Winclean rounds have been the only flat nosed bullets I've seen in this caliber.

EW
 
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Bulldozer

New member
In 380 ACP, I'd carry the 102-grain JHP Golden Sabre put out by remington. I'd want the heavier mass for deeper penetration with a decent chance of expansion.
 
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mete

New member
Yes it's been shown that the meplat bullet is more effective than the RN but not a large improvement .But with rounds like a 380 you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear !!
 
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juliet charley

New member
Actually, the 102-grain Golden Sabre is pretty lousy when it comes to penetration (from firearmstactical.com):

Bare Gelatin: 9.7/.51 (pen/exp)
Clothed Gelatin: 8.8/.62 (pen/exp)

Even with the slightly higher mass of 102-grains, the Golden Sabre is lousy when it comes to penetration.

Your best bet with the .380 remains the FMJ. There is nothing wrong with the Winclean load you are using, but it offers no advantages over any other FMJ. I always like the Fiocchi 95-grain FMC load (but again, nothing to really recommend it except an extra 45 fps and it shot well in my PPK/s).

When it comes to selecting .380 for carry, I look for ammunition in this priority:

1. Reliability with my weapon.
2. Accuracy with my weapon.
3. Cost (because you need to practice a lot).
 
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U.F.O.

New member
It's fine. Considering expansion in a .380 is questionable anyway, I like the odds of using the heavier bullet. Omegapd, shoot several and see which works most reliably in your gun. You might also want to try the CorBon.

U.F.O.
 
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U.F.O.

New member
Oh my. From firearmstactical.com, no less. Looks like that old 1998 F.B.I. data has been improved upon.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm

juliet charley, I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing match with you on .380 ballistics. I read ad nauseum last Nov. a thread you were involved with on the subject. You obviously have an axe to grind here. Send horge an e-mail and you can pick the ball back up with him.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154532&page=2&pp=25&highlight=.380

Shoot what you want....I'll do likewise.

U.F.O.
 
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juliet charley

New member
U.F.O. -

We have been discussing the 102-grain Golden Sabre load (see your posts #5 and #7 in this thread). The 8.8" penetration for the 102-grain Golden Sabre (the load we have been discussing) is straight from firearmstactical.com--not old 1998 FBI data as you attempted to label it.

The data to which you linked has nothing to do with the 102-grain Golden Sabre but is for the 90-grain XTP (which does indeed look far better than the 102-grain Golden Sabre you have been pushing). BTW, did you notice the date of data you cited--it's old 1999 data (test date 10/99). :rolleyes:

Maybe a little less defensiveness and little more attention might be called for on your part, you reckon? ;)
 
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cje1980

New member
Hey omegapd. I also carry the 102 grain Remington GS's. They looked fine to me in most of the terminal ballistics tests I've seen and they had the best expansion of all the rounds tested in the firearmstactical results.
Click to expand...

I think we are missing the point. We aren't worried about whether it will expand. In this case you might not want it to expand to ensure sufficient penetration. Too many focus on expansion, well expansion means nothing if it doesn't penetrate enough. I can shoot a bear with a 9mm HP and say, well from the tests I've seen it will expand. Does it mean anything, no because it won't penetrate sufficiently to cause damage to vital organs. Any modern HP design will pretty much expand 99% of the time, contrary to what many people who believe, particularly die-hard .45 fans. An expanded bullet that under-penetrates and doesn't reach vital organs is a failure. Keep in mind that it has been determined by the FBI that anytime a BG points a gun at you, there is a good chance that his/her arm will be blocking COM. Each time a bullet penetrates or exits human skin, it is the equivalent of 3-4" of gelatin penetration to due the skin's elastic nature. I would be concerned with a .380 HP's ability to penetrate and exit a human arm and still penetrate enough to reach vital organs in the COM. In the 1986 Miami, shootout a much more powerful 115gr. 9mm HP failed to do this. What makes you think a .380 with less bullet mass and much less velocity will do any better?
 
T

TomNash

New member
Every brand I could buy

"Thx. Tom Nash. Did you try any other ammo besides the Federal?

U.F.O."

Yes, I tested many different brands. The results from the tests are reposted below. I agree with most of the sentiments regarding .380ACP performance - I.E. you can have expansion or penetration, although finding both qualities in the same bullet is where the challenge lies.

3 Cor-Bon 90gr. Bullets penetrated exactly 8" and expanded to 0.64" average diameter. Also, IIRC , Winchester SXT penetrated 10", expanded slightly less than the Cor-Bon. Remington 102gr. Golden Saber penetrated to around 8.5" and expanded slightly more than the Cor-Bon. Winchester 95 gr. Ranger .380ACP, penetrated to 8" and wound up at 0.62" average diameter. Speer Golddot was somewhere between the Remington and the Win SXT in terms of penetration and expansion. Hornday XTP failed to expand, but met penetration requirements.

I paid no serious attention to these rounds, because they failed to penetrate 12" or more in the gelatin, so my stated measurements of diameter are exact and the penetration depths, other than for the Cor-Bon which I remember distinctly, are approximations. Firearm utilized for all tests was Kel-Tec P3AT.

== .380ACP Federal Personal Defense (90 gr. Hydrashok) ==

Calibration = 3.1875" (8.1cm) BB velocity = 582 ft./s.

Shot 1 - Penetrated 12.5"

Shot 2 - Exited block at 11.9375"

Shot 3 - Penetrated 12.4375"

Shot 4 - Penetrated 11.9375"

Shot 5 - Penetrated 12.0625"

Average impact velocity = 843 ft./s.

Average recovered diameter = 0.469"

Firearm = Kel-Tec P3AT

====================================

-Whew - gonna give my fingers a rest now! :)

Tom
 
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TX_RGR

New member
Is there a difference?

I don't have any data in front of me on velocity of winclean vs. (fill in the blank) ball ammo, but I would go with the one that offers the most velocity/mass. One thing I would strongly recommend is to try this ammo out on your chosen firearm. the reason I say so is that my wife's colt govmt. did not like that ammo at all. It feeds hydro-shoks just fine, and of course ball, but it did not care for that stuff. YMMV.

TX
 
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packa45

New member
juliet charly is against HP in any caliber. Pentration is the only factor in consideration for this individual. :barf:
 
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juliet charley

New member
juliet charly is against HP in any caliber. Pentration is the only factor in consideration for this individual.
Click to expand...
That's not true, packa45. Does that one post make you a liar? ;)

I wouldn't want to carry 9x19 with FMJ--give me a good 147-grain JHP (the Winchester Ranger T to be specific). I also prefer the 230-grain Ranger T for the .45 ACP though I'm not adverse to carrying FMJ in it. I shoot the .357 Magnum more than any other round and have a little over a thousand rounds of it the closet right now--nothing but JHP.

When it comes to the .380 and 9x18 though, FMJ is the only way to go (as I and several others have noted). Those calibres simply to do not have adquate penetration with expanding bullets.

Now, I suppose if I wanted to emulate you, I could categorically label you a liar, couldn't I? Do you maybe see the dangers of unfounded assumptions? :rolleyes:
 
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packa45

New member
I don't think it's unfounded when you chastize everyone for carrying HP in every thread on this subject. Anyway I'm done with these threads debating HP versus FMJ. Have fun and flame on.
 
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