38 Special wadcutters?

[44 AMP]

The main things to consider when using wadcutters for anything but shooting paper targets are velocity, bullet construction, and penetration. And, of course the three are interrelated.

The wadcutter shape is very effective, at both cutting clean holes in paper and transferring energy. It is not well shaped for penetration though.

Factory loaded wadcutters, and factory produced wadcutter bullets are intended for light target loads. The are either pure lead or a very soft lead alloy, and most are swaged from lead wire. Cast wadcutters can be anything the caster desires from dead soft lead to the hardest alloys.

Wadcutters can be easily used in small snubs without as much recoil as more powerful versions.

Certainly, the light target loaded wadcutters are the easiest things to shoot, in small guns, or large ones. But they are a poor choice for personal defense, because they are such light loads. A wadcutter shape bullet constructed for, and launched at service load speeds, (or more) is a better choice. But recoil will me greater. There's no free lunch.

 

[FITASC]

BUT, for many folks, especially older ones using a small revolver, a WC would be better than sharp words at bedroom distances

 

[Doc TH]

wadcutters

I am a bit skeptical about definitive statements that wadcutters are not suitable for defensive use. There are a number of videos from reliable sources employing heavy denim over ballistic gel that have demonstrated penetration that clearly meets the FBI penetration criteria. Most of these evaluations resulted in penetration of 16 inches or so, with minimal expansion.

 

[EIGHTYDUECE]

https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-winchester-super-match-148gr-wc-50#geltest

As Luckygunner's test show, they penetrate just fine out of the snubnosed revolver.

 

[stinkeypete]

.38 Special factory wadcutter bullets are seated flush with the case mouth because of the legendary S&W Model 52 Bullseye semi-automatic. The overall length of the bullet needed to be as short as possible to fit in the magazine, which was originally for 9x19 Luger.

I have never shot one, but all reports are that gun was gob-smackingly accurate with those bullets.

Me? I seat my double-ended wadcutters out farther, closer to the forcing cone and use whatever load is safe, given the internal volume I am crimping at, and the weight of the bullet. It's simply a little oil drum slug of lead.

While it's not as good as fancy metal hollow points IF the hollow points expand, it's probably better than hollow points that fail to expand.

All things considered, ain't nobody going to volunteer to stand between me and the pinecones I shoot at. Raccoon? Coyote? Ferral Dog? I have confidence that 148 grains going 900 fps and leaving a .375 hole will do the job.

And, you can shoot paper with them, too!

 

[44 AMP]

I am a bit skeptical about definitive statements that wadcutters are not suitable for defensive use.

You are, of course, free to use whatever you think best. I don't consider dead soft lead slugs at 700ish fps to be optimal. And, they're even slower out of a snubnose's short barrel. I've seen wadcutters moving in the 600fps range bounce off a refrigerator. The slugs flattened out impressively, (nearly an inch in diameter) left a dent, but did not penetrate the metal.

Factory loaded .38 Special wadcutters are target ammo. They can kill, but they are not good stoppers, nor were they ever meant to be.

The Wadcutter bullet shape, jacked up to the 800fps range, or more, (and made of a suitable alloy to allow that) IS an effective self defense round, much, much more so than the same slug at much slower speeds.

There are a number of videos from reliable sources employing heavy denim over ballistic gel that have demonstrated penetration that clearly meets the FBI penetration criteria.

That's nice. I'm not terribly impressed with the FBI criteria. Mostly because I remember the Miami shoot out where a 9mm JHP that met the FBI criteria delivered a fatal but not immediately incapacitating wound, resulting in the death of a couple of FBI agents and the crippling of several others before the gunman was finally shut down by several close range .357 rounds (some in the head, IIRC).

The FBI's response was to declare that 9mm round a failure and "move the goalposts" by increasing their minimum penetration requirements.

Ancient history now, but there's no doubt in my mind that under certain conditions, a round that meets their current requirements can fail to stop an attacker, and if that happens in a high profile shooting, again, they'll simply adjust their requirements, again.

 

[EIGHTYDUECE]

Then what you are saying is that ANY .38 Special round is subpar for defense. If you look at the data at Luckygunner's website, even the best hollow points that actually expand fail to penetrate within two inches as deep as Winchester 148 gr. Wadcutters. That includes +P.

I consider the .38 special and the .380 ACP to be in the same realm of barely adequate for defensive purposes. This is why I do not carry hollow point ammo for them. Not all factory wadcutters are the same, Winchester and Remington load them at 710 fps (out of a 2" barrel) where-as some other brands load them in the 600's.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Now hold on a moment.

Winchester 148gr wadcutter went deep...but so would FMJ. Greatest force against a moving object is burned up drag, not energy dumped "on target." They didn't perform better than FMJ or unopened JHP, they just experienced a higher force of drag. That doesn't make them better performers on target or better because it's landing at 16".

What Winchester 148gr wadcutter did on luckygunner is absolutely nothing for increasing it's diameter. Look again at luckygunner and Golden Saber out of a 2" barrel.

You have to suppose a lot for wad cutters to be important for self denfense;
1. wadcutters are the only slow FPS rounds,
2. wadcutters metplat cuts more than an FMJ or JHP, which they don't,
3. modern JHP rounds don't exist,
4. FMJ is inherently different, which drag is the only difference.

I don't get the fascination with wadcutters for defense. FMJ will got farther, but they will perform the same as wadcutters on target. Both don't expand. So you HAVE to think the metplat matters to want the drag, but it does not at such a small diameter and at usually 3xs slower than rifle level hydrostatic shock, plus drag isn't "on target energy dumping" like some suppose. Energy does dump, it dumps at the face of the resistance, the face of the bullet. It's not equalized to surrounding tissue. That's why a reinforced bonded copper jacket separates itself in performance over a total mushroom non bonded/non jacketed bullet. Expansion + penetration.

If drag is your main purpose or a depth, a JHP handily provides better drag and expands and lands nearly the same depth. Clear winner.

 

[jar]

There is also the Semi-Wadcutters, perhaps the best of both worlds.

Third from left:

 

[wild cat mccane]

Keith bullets lack modern skiving though

 

[74A95]

... the gunman was finally shut down by several close range .357 rounds (some in the head, IIRC).

357 Revolver, but 38 Special +P ammo according to this source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout#The_shootout

 

[44 AMP]

Then what you are saying is that ANY .38 Special round is subpar for defense.

Where does that come from?? I didn't say that, or see anyone else that did.

There are people who have great faith in .38 Special rounds and people who don't.

The topic is .38 Special Wadcutters, and the focus was on factory loaded ammo and its suitability for self defense.

If you think light loaded target ammo is the way to go, use it. I think there are better options.

 

[EIGHTYDUECE]

I was only talking penetration, not anything else pros or cons of wadcutters versus other bullet shapes. It was stated earlier in the thread that 148 gr. wadcutters do not penetrate enough to be used as a defensive round.

Re-reading my previous reply and my apologies if I sounded brash. Was not my intent. Personally I load Winchester Train & Defend hollow points in my S&W 637.

 

[gwpercle]

The ammunition is target grade and usually very accurate .

Shoot some from your gun and see how you group / shoot them .

I shoot them very accurately , the 148 gr. flat faced WC at 700 - 750 fps is easy to control , hits pretty hard and allows for a fast follow up shots .

Now the truth is ... in a gunfight ... only hits count .

Have a load you can shoot accurately and shoot fast and with ... beats missing the target with any magnum or hot load Seven ways to Sunday .

My 38 special J-Frame ... that goes out the door with me ... stays loaded with them !
Why ... I can shoot them accyrately and fast and hit the target ...Only Hits Count .
Gary

 

[44 AMP]

Now the truth is ... in a gunfight ... only hits count .

True. but only bullets that get to where they need to go MATTER.

And, despite video gel tests, I am not convinced that .38 Special wadcutter target ammunition will reliably do that.

And, I become particularly skeptical when you include snub nose barrels.

I've shot a lot of things, and more than a few critters with .38 wadcutters, nearly all of it from a 6" (or longer) barrel revolver. Hell on sage rats, works pretty good on bunnies, skunks and other similar size critters (provided you hit vital spots) but they would not by my first choice to defend myself from a human attacker.

 

[FITASC]

I would imagine, a head shot or groin shot with that wadcutter will stop the fight, even from a snub

 

[RMcL]

Factory full power 38spl wadcutter option

https://underwoodammo.com/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter/

This is a viable defensive standard pressure option:
150 grain coated, hard cast 38spl wadcutter.

Advertised at 1,000 fps in 4 inch revolvers.
Runs 850 fps in 1 & 7/8 inch barrel revolvers.

 

[44 AMP]

150 grain coated, hard cast 38spl wadcutter.

Advertised at 1,000 fps in 4 inch revolvers.
Runs 850 fps in 1 & 7/8 inch barrel revolvers.

Factory loaded hard cast wadcutters at standard velocity would be a better choice for personal defense than the usual light target loaded wadcutters.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Factory .38 wadcutters are a darned sight better than .22 LR, .25, and .32 ammunition-so there's that.

Having a gun is foremost in protecting yourself. ANY gun can stop an aggressor simply by presentation. Shooting someone with any gun can make them decide they don't want to get shot again- so they usually cease hostilities.

Shooting them in a vital spot or in the CNS with any gun can effect a stop.

Most people don't want to carry a .44 magnum all the time, so we trade off "stopping power" for convenience. If I knew I was going to have to shoot someone, I would probably have a shotgun or rifle.

Most people have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen, but they don't have a big industrial size one.

 

[RMcL]

Factory loaded hard cast wadcutters at standard velocity would be a better choice for personal defense than the usual light target loaded wadcutters.

Well these hard cast wadcutters are rated 800 fps from a 4 inch revolver
& 740 fps from a 2 inch,

https://doubletapammo.com/products/38-special-148gr-full-wadcutter-match-20rds