358 winchester

[Crankylove]

Not sure what they have now, but I picked mine up about about a year ago. 6 boxes of 185’s, for $13 each. Couldn’t say no to that.

Nobody local had anything under 200 grain that wasn’t a solid (Barnes or woodleigh), and I’m cheap, and didn’t want to pay for those bullets (as good as they are).

 

[Mike Irwin]

"*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06. "

Yeah.... decidedly NOT based on the .30-01.

The .30-01 was a complete and total dead end. It was never manufactured in quantity, it was never manufactured commercially, and it was extinct by the time the .35 Whelen was first designed.

The .30-01's primary characteristic was that the rim was substantially thicker than the rim that was finally adopted in the .30-03 cartridge.

As for whether Whelen based the case on the .30-03 or the .30-06 case... either could be the case, actually.

First, I personally subscribe to the theory that Whelen did NOT design the cartridge, James Howe did and it was named for Whelen. Whelen even said as much in his book "The Hunting Rifle: Design, Selection, Ballistics, Marksmanship."

But, I think it's more likely that Howe DID start with the .30-06 case, not the .30-03, because at the time the cartridge was designed, he was working at Frankford Arsenal (as was Whelen) and would have had TONS of .30-06 brass available to him with which to experiment.

.30-03 brass, on the other hand? Not so much. It had been out of government production for almost 2 decades at that point. Winchester (I believe) was still manufacturing .30-03 brass/cartridges to supply the Winchester Model 95 rifles so chambered (guess what case the .270 Winchester was based on?), but yearly production was tiny and the .30-03 would go extinct in a few years.

Yes, directly necking up .30-06 brass to .35 will shorten the case. But guess what Howe/Whelen had TONS of at hand when the .35 Whelen was being developed?

Arsenal produced formed .30-06 cases that hadn't had the final neck trim done.

Necking an untrimmed .30-06 case up to .35 caliber and then final trimming to 2.494 is a very simple thing.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

[Blue Duck]

I had one in a Browning BLR, an old one, made in Belgium, with the rounded mag. It was nicely accurate, but I gave up on it because it wasn't reliable in feeding from the magazine. If you was to buy a later BLR with the flat bottom mag, It will probably feed just fine.

I had and still have a Remington 700 Classic in 350 REM Mag and I like that caliber probably better, and you could load it down a little and get 358 balistics pretty easy. I have taken a lot of game with the 350 mag and it is a killer. Either caliber, you better plan on reloading for it, as factory ammo is scarce. In the 350 I liked the 200 grain Seirra round nose bullet, and the 180 grain Speer pointed soft point. My gun would place both on target with same point of impact at 200 yards. I would usually carry both with me, and slip a 180 grainer in there, if I had a 250 to 300 yard shot.

But I haven't used it much in the last few years, because I got lazy and I mostly just hunt deer and hogs anyway, and the plain old .308 Winchester with 180 grain bullets with kill anything I need to kill inside of 300 yards or even farther.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Friend had a Remington... 600? 660? in .350 Rem Mag.

The thing was absolute MURDER with full power ammo. Kicked like an SOB.

He downloaded it .358 Win. levels. It really tamed the recoil and he was highly successful with it as a deer rifle.


Edit in: It was a 660 Mohawk. It had the short carbine barrel. Muzzle blast was also quite unpleasant.

 

[jmr40]

The 350 Rem Mag duplicated 35 Whelen performance but from a short action rifle. I've never messed with the 350 RM nor the 358, but I have owned a 35 Whelen. The 35 Whelen exceeds 300 WM recoil. I'd imagine that can be pretty brutal in a lightweight rifle.

 

[Mike Irwin]

That was the true problem -- a lightweight carbine.

Primarily the same problem that exists with the .338 Magnum.

Fantastic cartridge, but generally packaged in standard rifles that are simply too light. The .338 is potent enough that it really needs to be in a rifle in the same weight class as the .375 H&H.

 

[Paul B.]

"Fantastic cartridge, but generally packaged in standard rifles that are simply too light. The .338 is potent enough that it really needs to be in a rifle in the same weight class as the .375 H&H."

I agree 100%. I shoot a lot of different cartridges from the .22 Hornet to the .416 Rigby. While the ,404 Jeffery and the Rigby are quite noticeable, neither hurts me as badly as the two .338 Win. Mags I have. I like the .375 H&H though. I find it more of a push that a snappy come back like the .338.
Frankly, at my age, (85) I've just about stopped shooting the bigger boomers. I worry about the possibility of retinal detachment. I haven't for the recoil of my .35 Whelen to be all that bad. It's based on a custom using a Mauser action. However, the Ruger M77 and Remington M700 Classic are another story. Their lighter weight make recoil a it uncomfortable I'd guess my Mauser weight at least a pound more than the M700, maybe a pound and a quarter. I only shoot it to check sights aand at game. No long sessions at the bench with it anymore.
Paul B.

 

[Mike Irwin]

When I worked at NRA one of the other editors bought himself a .338 for an elk hunt.

We shot it stock, and it shot really well, but recoil wasn't a push, it was a full-on Mike Tyson style punch. Quite painful.

He ended up adding about 1.5 pounds of lead weight to the stock and putting on a PAST recoil pad. That made all of the difference in the world.

Another one of the editors had either a .416 or a .425. Beautiful antique rifle, true Mauser magnum action. Probably worth a freaking mint.

Recoil, while stout, wasn't nearly as bad as the .338 because the .416/.425 weighed about 14 pounds.

 

[ligonierbill]

We haven't heard back from oldbear, and I've hesitated to chime in, not having direct experience with the 358. I do have a 35 WCF, offspring of the 30-40 Krag. Not quite as powerful as the 358, but mine trails it by <100 fps with 200 or 250 grain bullets. It's certainly a thumper on both ends. Ken Waters was a fan of the 35 bore. If I may quote from his Pet Loads, the 358 Winchester is "a ring-tailed brush buster and timber cartridge par excellence".

 

[44 AMP]

Friend had a Remington... 600? 660? in .350 Rem Mag.

The thing was absolute MURDER with full power ammo. Kicked like an SOB.

Yep, they do that.

He downloaded it .358 Win. levels. It really tamed the recoil and he was highly successful with it as a deer rifle.

And, they do that too!...

The only real problem with the Remington 600 series carbines is recoil levels in the more powerful chamberings.

Depending on barrel configuration and wood density, the guns average between 5.5 and 6.5lbs. Mohawks tend to run a bit heavier, but not a lot.
.350 Magnum in one of those light carbines is on the harsh side of BRUTAL!

On the other hand, I've seen it knock a 650lb critter off its feet quite well. There's no free lunch. Loaded down to .358 levels it would be a fine deer / woods elk rifle. but its still going to kick, just not QUITE as much.

My first deer rifle was a Rem 600 in .308 Win. For a .308 it has considerable recoil, but nothing near the .350. Shot the .308 600 side by side against a Rem 700 7mm Rem Mag. The 7Mag was several inches longer, and nearly two pounds heavier. Felt recoil was the same, to me.

The .358 packs more punch and has more easily usable range than the .35 Rem making it a fine choice for a lot of hunting. Its another of those rounds what do their job really well, but never reached the top levels of general popularity.

 

[Paul B.]

My big boomer are all on Ruger #1s, the .404 and .416 as is the .375 H&H. I like the rifles but at my age the threat of something bad like a detached retina make me quite leery of shooting them. Molds for the two cartridges are quite expensive for good ones so haven't developed and cast loads for them.

The .375 H&H id a horse of a different color though as I have an RCBS mold that supposedly makes a 250 gr. bullet but actually make one at 270 gr. I run a load with H4350 that does about 2100 FPS and recoil is about like a stiff 220 gr. load from a 30-06.

Interesting thing about my two .338 Win. Mags. Both came equipped with what I think were Limbsaver recoil pads. At some time they turned into some kind of goo and are currently wrapped in masking tape. No idea what caused it and as I don't shoot them anymore they just reside in the safe.
Paul B.