.357 & 44 Magnum handloads that work well in Revolver and Levergun?

[ciwsguy]

To put the title in context, I have a Rem-Marlin 1894 (44 Magnum) and a Rem-Marlin 1894C (357 Magnum) that I have been attempting to find hand-loads that work well both in a Revolver and the respective caliber lever gun. I have yet to find any load that will shoot well so a common hand-load can be used in both. What works well in the revolver shoots poorly in the lever gun.

Wondering if anyone else has found hand-loads that shoot well in both revolver and lever gun?

Wondering.......

 

[AlaskaMike]

Some of the Marlins have a very slow twist, so if yours is one of those, it probably won't do very well with longer, heavier bullets.

Other than that, I think as long as you stay with published load data, you should do pretty well with almost anything.

Something that always comes up in threads like these is that some will claim you need to use only slow burning magnum powders in the rifle to "take advantage of the longer barrel" or something similar. This is absolutely not true. My .44 special plinkers using 231 powder and 200 or 250 grain cast bullets doo just beautifully in my .44 mag Rossi 92. Different guns behave differently though of course, so you may need to try lots of different loads to find combinations that work well in both your handguns as well as your Marlin.

 

[44 AMP]

Every gun has its own "quirks" and a given load may shoot great in one gun and poorly in the next, even if they are identical guns on the outside, they can, and often do perform differently.

What works well in the revolver shoots poorly in the lever gun.

This is pretty vague. Shoots well, and shoot poorly doesn't mean much without more specific information.

How good is "shoots well" and how bad is "shoots poorly"??

 

[ciwsguy]

That has been the problem especially in 44 magnum. Finding a load that shoots well in the lever gun shoots horribly in the S&W 629 revolver. Part of that is the Marlin is a 1:38 twist with an oversized bore (.431) and the Marlin 1894 has only shot well with full magnum loads of H110 and 240 grain bullets. Revolver is .429 bore which complicates matters.

Plus the revolver is much more difficult to control at full magnum load.

 

[ciwsguy]

Maybe that's why Chuck Connors only used a lever gun and didn't mess with revolvers.

 

[ballardw]

Maybe that's why Chuck Connors only used a lever gun and didn't mess with revolvers.

I think the name of the show as "The Rifleman" may have had more to do with that.

 

[HiBC]

I don't have a .357. I do have a .44 Mag SBH and a Douglas bbl Browning 92.

(I decided I wanted a rifle vs a carbine so I cut a Douglas blank octagon)

I pretty much load cast SWC 240+ bullets with H-110.

Ogives vary,so crimped in the groove, cartridge LOA will end up varying.

If your loads end up a bit too long they will snag and stop on the way in and the mag tube will feed another round behind it.

Load and try a few samples to confirm you have something that works before you commit and load 500.

I also had fun with 215 gr cast SWCs and 300 gr Lasercast Truncated cone but remember my rifle is a Browning.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I'm not sure what a "Rem-Marlin" is, but I have a Marlin 1894 20" 44 Magnum; and a Henry 357 Magnum. I have two 44 Magnum revolvers (5" & 8-3/8") and four 357 Magnum revolvers (3", 4", 6", & 8-3/8").

Unfortunately, my Marlin 44 won't shoot anything straight, except a .431 slug; and I'd probably shoot a .432 if such a jacketed animal existed. Heck, maybe even .433 - no telling how giant its bore is. It's a disgrace. So I only shoot one load for it, and it isn't suitable for my revolvers (I'm not comfortable blowing .431 bullets through guns that shoot .429's just fine).

But the .357 Henry is a different story. I also only load one loading for my Henry: a 158 grain JSP, using W296 with a charge weight a little over published max (not over max in older manuals). But I also shoot that loading in my revolvers. It's shoots really nice in the 6" and 8" bbls. But it's boomy and kinda silly through the 4" bbl; and just ludacris in the 3".

However, I also load a 158 JHP using 2400 and it's a great shooter in all the guns - maybe a bit boomy in the 3," but is just fine in the 4" (what I shoot the most). I would consider that loading to be a very good all-around compromise. It's shoots 100 f/s less in the Henry compared to the W296 loading; but hey, everything in life is a trade-off.

 

[44 AMP]

My personal experience with Marlin 1894s (made by Marlin) in both .44 and .357 is that they are length sensitive and not over fond of SWC bullets.

Rounds that are too long simply will not feed and easily jam up the action. Way too long rounds might not even fully exit the magazine tube onto the carrier (lifter) resulting in an instant and very "solid" jam.

The SWC issue is more subtle. It can appear and disappear, depending on the speed the action is operated. Fast usually means more trouble than slow with SWCs.

What can happen is that if the round "bounces" on the lifter and the nose presents just a little too high when being fed into the chamber the flat nose, or more often the square shoulder of the bullet catches on the edge of the chamber and stops, rather than sliding in.

IF this happens, the solution is not to try and force the round in, what usually works is bumping the lever forward, just bit, taking the pressure of the bolt off the round, which then usually drops down onto the carrier in the proper position and will then smoothly chamber.

Generally speaking, this does not happen with RN or jacketed bullets, because there is no sharp shoulder to catch on the edge of the chamber, a slight degree of misalignment during feeding still usually results in the round sliding right in.

I've never had a Winchester 92 or its copies so I can't say if this issue exists with them.

 

[rc]

Well, I think one of the things you should figure out is what is most important to you? Revolver or Rifle accuracy? Speed or accuracy? Plinking or hunting? I was shooting my 1894 and 686 in 357 recently and I noticed the 158gr LSWC rounds with 231 that shoot pretty good from my revolver don't shoot very well from the rifle. I switched the rifle to some 140 grain Remington SJHP with 800X and it shot much better so I left it sighted for that load. You can load your 357 and 44 with a lot of different powders from 231 to H110. If you go with the faster powders they will probably shoot pretty well from both rifle and handgun but you'll not get very good performance from either. If you go with the slowest powder choices you'll get the biggest boost from the rifle, but a lot of flash and blast from the pistol that won't produce better speeds than with medium powders like Blue Dot and 800X. The trade off with the medium powders will be 100 to 200 fps lower max velocity from your rifles compared with the slowest powder choices depending on your bullet weight. 140 grain JHPs are a pretty good general all around choice in 357 for rifle and handgun. I think in 44 mag it's hard to beat the 240 grain bullets.

 

[ocharry]

ciwsguy...i know this info is NOT magnum but i thought i would put it out here anyway for you to ponder

when i was cowboy shooting i used 44cal stuff...and 41 pistol stuff sometimes..i digress..but i used 44cal most of the time and i used ruger pistols and marlin rifles with the same load to cut down on confusion when the timer and pressure was on...because sometimes there was a load one or a reload on the line...didnt have time to figure out where was what

i also used 200gr rnfp lead bullets in both pistol and rifle loaded in 44spl brass with Universal powder..i could look in the log for exactly what the charge was but IIRC it was around 6gr....that is very vague and you should check into the load data before using it...and i think it was giving me around 850-900fps...never had any trouble knocking stuff down when needed

i am pretty sure you can get a mag load with this powder...but the load i had worked up shot very well in the rifle..and pretty good in the pistols...most of the load data i was using was from talking directly with the hodgdon guys...because there wasnt much load data out there for cowboy stuff...like now....they gave me a starting poing and i kinda took it from there...but im sure most of the stuff is published data now...25-30 years later...lol

my rifle was a marlin/davidson cowboy LTD it has ballard cut rifling in a 24" barrel..the pistols were the old version of the vaquaro in 44

this same load shot very well in a marlin carbine i had (daughter has now) with micro groove rifling

even though the loads i was using was 44spl they were very accurate out of both rifle and pistol and offered plenty of punch

so im sure IF you keep after it you can find something that will work for you

just some thoughts...oh and stay away from SWC bullets as mentioned...truncated works well too if you use lead

ocharry

 

[bamaranger]

dual load

I have a 1980 circa Marlin and a Ruger B-hawk from about the same era. For a while I had dual loads so as both guns could use the same ammo. Initially I went the mid-range path, loading a 158gr LSWC to 1000 fps with 6 to 6.5gr charge of Unique. That load was accurate and mild to shoot in both guns. Despite the talk that micro-groove does not shoot lead well, it worked well enough in my carbine. Feeding was not an issue.

Later I loaded up full power with 158gr JHP using a 13.5 gr 2400. That allowed me to entertain the idea of taking a deer with either gun, although it required a sight change for both to get back to POA/POi.

Eventually I left the dual load concept, as I found I never carried both firearms at the same time. The carbine kept it's full power JHP load, and I returned the Blackhawk to its mid-range fodder. Keeping two varieties of ammo on hand was not really an issue.

 

[bamaranger]

.44

In the .44's, I've not tried a dual load. My .44 mag loads run light bullet (200 gr JHP) in my slow twist 1-38" autoloaders, and mid-range (1000 fps) 240 gr LSWC in my sole .44 mag revolver, a S&W Mtn gun. The Mtn Gun is a vicious kicker with full power loads and the carbines like the lighter slugs.

 

[44 AMP]

If you go with the slowest powder choices you'll get the biggest boost from the rifle, but a lot of flash and blast from the pistol that won't produce better speeds than with medium powders like Blue Dot and 800X.

I have to disagree with part of this. It has been my experience that the slowest powders, (2400, 296, H110) produce more speed at max loads, in both pistols and rifles. Yes, you do get a lot of blast and flash from pistols, but I get higher velocities with those powders than I do with Blue Dot. (I don't use 800X so I can't say about that one).

A point to consider when you are looking for "one load to run them all" is what do you want that load to do? Proper bullet selection is vital for game use, particularly in the .357.

The common and popular 125gr JHP is designed for optimal performance at handgun speeds. Add another 500fps that the carbine can deliver and the bullet can be seriously overdriven, resulting in a radical change in impact performance. The Marlin carbine can push a 125gr to 2200fps and at that speed, they tend to expand so much and so fast they seem to blow up. Penetration suffers a lot when this happens. The 158gr JHP/JSP tend to do better, their heavier weight, means somewhat lower speed from the carbines and their construction is generally such that they don't usually turn into the "grenades" that the 125s often are.

Contact the bullet makers of the slugs you are thinking of using and get the velocity range the bullets are made to perform in. There are slugs that will do alright at 1800fps but not at 2200fps.

If you're not shooting game, it doesn't matter much, but if you are, its something to know and account for.

 

[ciwsguy]

Rem-Marlin = Remlin
i.e., Remington-made Marlin

 

[ciwsguy]

What is shoots well?
Acceptably accurate in both Rifle and Pistol. The 1894 44 Magnum I have is a large bore (0.431 groove diameter) with slow 1:38 inch twist rate. My S&W 629 revolver is 0.429 groove diameter.
I've basically given up finding a 44 magnum hand-load that will shoot acceptably accurate in both. Best I've gotten from the 1894 44 Mag is a 2" group at 50 yards from a bench rest and a scope and that is with near max H110 load with 240 grain polymer coated SWC. But that load is brutal to shoot in a 6" 629. I won't try to push .431 or larger bullets out of the 629 revolver.

I don't know why the 44 bore difference and twist rates are different between rifle and handgun, but I've basically given up finding a 44 mag load that will do that.

 

[AlaskaMike]

I should've mentioned it in my earlier post, but one big reason folks have trouble finding a load that works well in both .44 revolver and rifle, especially with cast bullets is that in their infinite wisdom SAAMI went with different groove diameters for the .44 mag rifle spec vs the .44 mag revolver spec.

SAAMI .44 mag rifle groove diameter spec is .431 + .002" while the handgun spec is .429 + .002". So a rifle with a .433" groove diameter is completely within spec, as is a revolver with a .429" groove diameter.

Why SAAMI did this is absolutely baffling, and it has caused no end of confusion and frustration. To my knowledge they haven't done this with any other magnum caliber. So unfortunately most people blame the rifle manufacturers for this when really they need to vent their frustration on SAAMI.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Loaded for a 44 henry years back. Best 3 powders were h110, unique, and power pistol, in that order. Settled on unique as it used a lot less powder and was more accurate.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Or, just get a .41 magnum. Bore diameters are the same for both rifle and pistol. I have loads for both my .357 and .41 that work in both my Henry’s and my pistols. But, I’m happy with pistol ammo I can rapid fire out to 15 yds and keep the group under five inches with at least 90% of rounds fired. If I want to shoot longer distances with my pistols then I use loads designed only for that level of accuracy and shoot slowly in SA.

 

[44 AMP]

Much as I hate to defend SAAMI (when they do what I think is foolish) I think its important to recognize that it isn't SAAMI alone, its ALSO the gun makers.

SAAMI specs are not laws, SAAMI has no enforcement ability (beyond "peer pressure") gun and ammo makers are not required to conform to SAAMI specs, and CAN choose not to. Most don't, and wear their SAAMI compliance as armor against complaints, and it is frequently proof for that.

If you are within SAAMI specs, then you are safe, but being outside of them doesn't automatically mean you aren't safe. Its situational, dependent on the specific factors involved.

I don't know why its .431" for rifles and .429" for pistols, but its what the gun makers CHOOSE to do.