308 Loads not chambering in AR, need advice

HiBC

New member
The dickishness from Hibc was not needed though.

The thing about handloading is you do not always get a second chance to get it right.
Reading the instructions and studying the reloading manual saves a lot of time and trouble.

Not doing that is one way to earn the "little Richard" award.

I took a fair amount of time and trouble to give you a good answer.
 
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Shadow9mm

New member
The thing about handloading is you do not always get a second chance to get it right.
Reading the instructions and studying the reloading manual saves a lot of time and trouble.

Not doing that is one way to earn the "little Richard" award.

I took a fair amount of time and trouble to give you a good answer.
Still does not address the fact that you could have said it nicely rather than in a churlish manner.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Come to think of it, easiest thing to do would be resize a couple pieced and see if the unloaded brass will chamber. If it chambers its the crimp. If it does not chamber, it is not getting sized enough. Kind of like a plunk test on a handgun.

Which is what I said in post #9.

I've always gotten good results sizing on a single stage press, and O frames are the best. I've found progressives and turret presses, while fine for seating just have too much give built in (so the parts can move) for best results FL sizing rifle brass.

Been using the same Lyman FL sizer die in .308Win, that I got in 1973, I use it in an RCBS JR press these days, screwed down firm on the shellholder with all the slack out of the ram.

I seem to be in a minority these days with everyone saying how you need to size your brass to just barely fit in the chamber, and while a good approach with a precision bolt gun, I think its the wrong thing for semi autos. I WANT min sized ammo for the most clearance I can get when feeding a semi auto. With many semi autos all you have is the force of the recoil spring and the clearance of the ammo when feeding. Only a few these days have operating handles that work both ways.

My FL Lyman .308 sizer die (screwed all the way down like the instructions say) has produced acceptable ammo for several different bolt and lever guns and also for an M1A, an FAL and an H&K 91. Never had any issues with cases not chambering ok, and also never had issues with brass life.

Yes, cases that fit the chamber "tightest" seem to give the best accuracy I gladly give up a tiny fraction of accuracy (which is most likely beyond the capability of my rifles and shooting skill anyway) for reliability.

I'd take a 3 or 4MOA rifle that works EVERY TIME over a 1MOA gun you have to hammer shut or bang on the ground to get open.
 

Bart B.

New member
Adjusting (backing off) the sizer die to get s specific measurement that is not full FL sizing..........
I asked several sizing die makers what full length sizing means. All said that case outside dimensions except length and rim-to-extractorgroove must be made smaller. Die doesn't have to touch the shell holder. Otherwise it's partial full length sizing.

Most folks agree.
 
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Bart B.

New member
When the USA military rifle teams got their 7.62 NATO semiautomatic rifles testing well under MOA ES through 600 yards, that only happened with new cases. The rifle's bolt faces were not squared up and fired case heads were therefore out of square. When reloaded then fired, such cases caused the bore axis to point away near a MOA from the ideal angle and direction to make the bullet's LOF angle to LOS perfect.

Bolt action rifles are also susceptible to this issue.
 
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9mmSkeeter

New member
Tried all of the above and I am still having issues. Pounding the hell out of my Smith right now as we speak. A factory round even got stuck. I'm sending it off to Smith.
 

mehavey

New member
SKEETER:
Q1: Are you "camming over" upon resizing ? (if not, adjust the sizing die to 1/16 turn or so beyond shell-holder contact to accommodate press stretch)

Q2: What sizing lube are you using? (if not some variation on RCBS or Lee liquid Case Lube, or Imperial Wax, I suggest you find some)

Q3: Having fully sized cases using good case lube, . . . will those empty cases then chamber/extract OK ?


.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Agreed. When a new factory round of reputable manufacture gets stuck, the gun needs to go back to the maker to be checked.

Do include the maker and lot# of the factory ammo that got stuck in the information you give the gun maker. And be prepared to contact the ammo maker as well. Factory ammo is not infallible, either.
 

mehavey

New member
We don't know the circumstances of the "New Factory Stuck Cartridge"
(But of course I have my plausible opinion held in reserve)

I would still appreciate knowing Skeeter's results of Post#29

...And do I understand correctly the gun has never yet been fired?
 

9mmSkeeter

New member
I Don't know what camming over means

I'm using a Hornady Case lube that is in a tub. It's white.

An empty sized brass case gets it's neck smashed pretty good. Does not chamber/extract.

Has never been fired.
 

mehavey

New member
We don't know we have a barrel problem at all... yet.

Camming over:
- If you screw the sizing die to contact the shell holder/drop the ram, and turn the die say 1/16 turn more -- the ram will stop just before full stroke next time .
- Putting a little more pressure on the handle will cause you to feel a "bump" as it very slightly springs the press to take full stroke.
- That bump-over feel indicates "cam-over"

Now put a lubed case (Hornday's good) in the shellholder and run full stroke.
- Feeling that slight bump-over again means you've a true full-length sized case as best the die can do. Shellholder meets die hard contact. No spring gap.

Does that (empty) case now chanber/extract easily ?
 

HiBC

New member
An empty sized brass case gets it's neck smashed pretty good.

Have you measured the brass overall length to see if it needs to be trimmed?

Find a dimension drawing of the cartridge case. Measure what you have. Be sure to check shoulder diameter.

Remove your upper. Pull the carrier out. Inspect,with good light,the chamber and throat area.Look in the locking lug area for obstructive trash.

Look where the gas tube enters the upper. Does it appear "centered"

Check over the bolt carrier. Does it function freely? Is it lubed? Are any pins protruding? Does the ejector plunger move without "crunch"

Taken as the whole rifle/ammo assembly,it may be overwhelming.

Broken down to its simplest one on one relationships,like many other things,its really not much more complicated than tinker toys,legos,etc.

The round peg goes in the round hole,or it does not. Find out why.

Ease.Observe. Maybe scraped magic marker tell a story. Generally,a thumb ad forefinger provide enough "force".

If you get tight jawed,put it down. Nothing about an AR should require more than a pin tapping hammer unless you are undoing another screw up.

When a collapsed shoulder case gets slammed into a tapered chamber by the bolt carrier/buffer spring,it CAN get really stuck.

Try to avoid letting the bolt carrier slam questionable ammo into the chamber.

You have the upper detached. Bolt carrier removed. You are looking at the chamber. Any cartridge component should drop in,drop out.

If it does not,don't force it. Worst case,a cleaning rod will push it out. No hammer required.

A little Sharpie ink on a tight brass case will reveal tracks where there is a tight spot.

Avoid hammers,files,Dremels,cordless drills,and wooden dowel rods.

As this is an unfired gun,did you clean preservative grease,machine chips,etc,then lube it?

I know.Those contaminants "should not be there" Murphy's law.|

It COULD be a factory defect. But those are quite rare.

Guns,if we set emotions aside,are largely tinker toy and legos level mechanics IF we can avoid doing any harm
 

Metal god

New member
How does the neck get smashed ? Are you loading it in a mag then using the BCG to strip it from the mag and chamber ? If so , don’t .

Lock the bolt back then with the muzzle pointed towards the gound place the sized case as Mehavey descibes to size into the chamber though the ejection port by hand . Sometimes you need to fiddle with it to drop down into the chamber . Now ride the bolt home by holding the charging handle back and slowly letting the BCG to close . Once it stops push the charging handle in until it latches . Now give the forward assist a few good taps to force the bolt into full battery. If you can’t get the bolt to fully close or the the bolt gets stuck like before .l
 

HiBC

New member
Metal God

I do not see advantage in initially using the bolt carrier and assist.

Why would you not just use the detached upper, no bolt carrier,and just see if the ammo witll drop in/drop out of the chamber first?
 

mehavey

New member
Fully-assembled rifle/open bolt
Drop the empty case into the chamber/allowing gravity to fully drop it into chamber.
Release the bolt to slam it home.**

If the case has a headspace/shoulder problem, that will stick the case.
If no case no stickee ....case/chamber headspace combo OK.




** (OK, OK.... let bolt go from just partially full open -- but enough to fully seat the case/engage the extractor.)
 

HiBC

New member
Well,OK. We see it different. Thats OK,

I'm skeptical that a headspace or head clearance issue would deliver the "stuckedness" issue described.

I know our OP does not have all the tools. I use headspace gauges and a cartridge bushing gauge.A buffer spring is not involved. Its essentially "drop in,drop out.

Headspace/clearance is linear,against a stop. There is the necessary head clearance,or there is not. No "white knuckles" required.Or its a fail

I suspect "stuckedness" is not about a length .Its about a diameter.(I suspect)

The taper of the chamber is working like the locking taper in a Tailstock spindle of a lathe.

For the gun to run,it requires clearance on the diameters. No buffer spring.No forward assist. Those only serve to get the round stuck.Then you need to "Mortar" or get a hammer. Unnecessary!! The cartridge should drop in,drop out.

The lower,bolt carrier,etc are just clutter in the way.

This is tinker toy simple. Use the chamber only for a plunk gauge first.

Its pass fail. If all the ammo drops in/drops out,OK

Then introduce the bolt/bolt carrier,buffer spring,etc.
 
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