.22lr with reduced charge used by the Mossad?

[Cold Steel]

The Israelis use subsonic ammo to prevent the sharp crack of their bullets exceeding the sound barrier. They normally step up behind the target and shoot twice just below the ear. The .22lr is very much underrated as a defensive round and the Beretta 70S.22lr is an astoundingly reliable pistol. Sadly, it's no longer made. I had mine hard chromed and it's one of my favorite pistols.

I remember being incensed when my Beretta 21 .22lr kept jamming. Some gun writers concluded that tiny .22s just weren't reliable enough to use for self defense and that people should stick with .25acp if they're going to carry a mouse gun. But someone told me to switch to CCI Mini-Mags, Stingers, Yellow Jackets and Winchester ammo and it was good advice. Now the 21 works fine. I also have a Jennings J-22 that is extremely reliable.

Not only the Israelis, the mob also used .22lr pistols as a way of discreetly making hits. Most likely because of the movies and cable shows, they've gotten away from that. Because of the way .22s deform, it makes tracing them to a particular gun very difficult. But many mob hits are made with untraceable guns that are left at the scene. The person who killed Robert Blake's wife just dumped his gun, a 9mm, in a nearby dumpster.

The Beretta 70S was an all-steel .22lr that was lightweight, reliable and hammer-fired. With subsonic ammo was used at close ranges, the results were predictabley effective.






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[AK103K]

I remember being incensed when my Beretta 21 .22lr kept jamming. Some gun writers concluded that tiny .22s just weren't reliable enough to use for self defense and that people should stick with .25acp if they're going to carry a mouse gun. But someone told me to switch to CCI Mini-Mags, Stingers, Yellow Jackets and Winchester ammo and it was good advice. Now the 21 works fine.

I had two 21A's (didnt learn my lesson with the first. ), and they were both very finicky if they were not kept spotlessly clean. Ammo used didnt seem to matter.

The worked fine with most generic HV .22's, as well as the Sitingers, Mini Mags, etc., as long as they were clean. Shoot a couple of boxes out of them, and they got grumpy pretty quick. Not having an extractor probably added to the problem.


Ive had a lot of .22 pistols over the years, and a number of the higher end guns, and cheap or expensive, they all were pretty picky about being kept clean. Some worked better than others, but they all would start to balk if you shot a lot of rounds through them.

The other issue I have with them, is the priming system isnt as reliable as center fire, and its not all that unusual to have misfires. Not so much an issue in a revolver, but more so with an auto.

While they can be fun to shoot, I just dont consider them reliable enough for serious use.

 

[jonnyc]

"They normally step up behind the target and shoot twice just below the ear."
"he mob also used .22lr pistols as a way of discreetly making hits."

Interesting. Did you learn all this during your Kidon Tironut or "Button Man" training?

 

[Cold Steel]

What you say is true. Almost any small gun can get gunked up with burnt powder and my Jennings is fantastic for about four mags, then things get iffy. But it's made for defense, not target shooting. That's fine for carrying and I pretty much stopped having problems with .22lr duds when I gave up buying Thunderbolts.

I have CCI Mini-Mag ammo that I bought in the 80s, and while it's not polished like today's ammo, I don't remember the last time I got a dud. I shoot it in my Rugers and it's like spitfires. I also shoot them in a Rossi revolver and don't have any problems, but with revolvers you have to make sure the cartridges are seated properly; otherwise, one blow will push it in and not detonate it, and it takes a second blow to fire it.

Every now and again at a range I'll see a container of .22lr duds, so I know they're out there.

The twenty-two is one of my favorite calibers. Modern ammo is pretty well manufactured, but the gun shooting it has to be very good. You do have to be careful with guns like the Jennings J-22. I pulled the slide back on it one time to load a round into the chamber, and even though I had my finger clear of the trigger, when I released it I got a slamfire, sending a bullet into a nearby wall. I've never been able to replicate it, but it happened.

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[jeager106]

Quote:
"They normally step up behind the target and shoot twice just below the ear."
"he mob also used .22lr pistols as a way of discreetly making hits."

Interesting. Did you learn all this during your Kidon Tironut or "Button Man" training?

Very well said.

Cold Steel: The Massad is rather notorious for using subsonic .22 l.r. ammo to murder people as sometimes does the "mob" (whatever is meant by that).
I'm curious as to what your back ground is to spur you to make the statement that the .22 l.r. is an under rated defense round when all you mention is ways the caliber is used to murder people????
Most confusing ascertion.
F.W.I.W. I have a Beretta 21 and it's never, ever, jamed & I shoot it a lot.
I carry a more potent caliber for self defense as I don't envision myself sneaking up behind anyone & shooting them behind the ear!!!!!!

 

[PT-92]

atshooter

The information you have came from a book titled "Vengeance" by George Jonus dealing with the Mossad teams sent to kill the terrorist who carried out the 1972 Munich Massacre of the Isreali athelete's in the olympics...

...The book is available on Amazon and is a darn good read. I wore out my first copy and am on my second book. The book was the basis for the movie "Munich". Trust me, the book is far better than the movie. I hope this answers some of your questions.

Well darn, I will have to Google the book (hoping for a preview) and perhaps buy a copy--if the book is far better than the movie as you suggest, it must be a great read indeed as "Munich" is a super film and one of my favorites.

 

[TXAZ]

On a related note, the CIA came up with a virtually silent heart attack gun, according to the Church Commission as a follow up to Watergate.
Link here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...of-any-heart-attacks-lately/question-2382255/

 

[TABING]

Yes, they used a reduced load for keeping it as quiet as possible, but still function the pistol.

There are a few books about their tracking down the killers of Munich. (Vengeance)

 

[Jim Watson]

I read the book. It is a fascinating account of espionage, but I do not consider it an authority on firearms. Standard velocity .22 LR would be adequate for any spookery.

 

[Water-Man]

The Aguila Sniper Sub Sonic functions well in my Ruger Mark II.

 

[JohnKSa]

I still don't understand why, if less power and noise than .22LR is desired, someone with firearm experience would try to download a .22LR instead of just using a gun chambered for .22Short.

It would be like trying to come up with a special downloaded .357Mag loading when you could just buy off-the-shelf .38Special instead. Except even more ridiculous since it's harder to manufacture small quantities of rimfires than it is to handload centerfire cartridges.

 

[JD0x0]

I don't understand why someone would download or look for a slower load, for an already subsonic cartridge in hopes of making it even quieter, more specifically the .22LR. It's already a low pressure cartridge with a very small powder charge.

'The iceman' had claimed that on at least 1 occasion a .22 failed to kill his target, with a contact headshot. Didn't penetrate the skull. Same thing happened when a wife tried to kill her husband with a .22 contact wound to the head. This time it did penetrate the skull but it didn't do significant enough damage. The man got up and went to work the next day with a severe headache, only to learn later he had been shot in the head, in his sleep, by his wife. .22's can fail to kill even with critical hits. I wouldn't want to be downloading .22LR any further for that reason.
I don't feel that there is anything to be gained from reducing the velocity from roughly 1000-1050fps to 800, 700, 600 FPS, you'd mostly be reducing terminal performance. With a suppressor on the gun, I don't think there's going to be any bit of noticeable difference in noise level. If they're not using suppressors, then downloading subsonic ammo in hopes of getting a quieter gun seems like a poor choice, IMO.

I think sometimes hype around 'quiet' and subsonic ammo get's exaggerated. Some people actually believe you need to get "specially loaded" pistol ammo to use with a suppressor, when the reality is most pistol ammo (especially with heavier bullets) tends to already be subsonic.
I believe in this context that 'reduced charge' is simply referring to 'standard velocity' and/or subsonic ammo (most cases they're the same ammo. The 'subsonic' ammo just sounds better for marketing purposes) which isn't loaded quite as 'hot' as 'high velocity' and 'hyper velocity' ammo, both of which tend to be supersonic, especially from rifle barrels.

 

[jonnyc]

As I stated above, the veracity of the book has been rightly called into question a number if times. The myth about down-loading .22LR ammo has been discredited.