.22 Magnum Critical Defense?

[seeker_two]

Interesting....I might have to get a Mini-Master or rechamber a Bearcat for this....

 

[Daekar]

I agree that for defensive use a 22mag isn't optimal, but I think these new loads are great. I would feel comfortable handing the new Keltec PMR-30 loaded with these to somebody who can't handle standard pistols cartridges and be assured they were equipped to take care of themselves. I met an elderly gentleman at the range the other day who complained of arthritis pain that prevented him from shooting his 9mm, and he's a great candidate. I love my P2000, but I wouldn't feel undergunned if I had to resort to that combination. Look at the energy for the Hornady: shooting the stuff out of a 1.75" barrel is like a 380 out of a 2.75". I figure the longer barrell on the Keltec will improve things even more. As far as I can tell, anybody who feels comfortable carrying a P3AT or P238 should feel like they've gotten a power upgrade if they put these rounds in a single-six or PMR-30, plus a big increase in control and follow up shots. That makes these fine candidates for SD rounds in any case. If it's good enough for CCW, then it will do the job at home.

 

[2cooltoolz]

I just bought some of the new CCI/Speer .22WMR 40 gr short barrel Gold Dots. Tested at 1150fps out of 1.9" barrel. I'll shoot them in the "pinky toe" and run like hell!!

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Didn't see the new loads at Cabelas on Tuesday.

All pistol loads are marginal for a one shot kill. It's the old debate of whether if the 22 Mag is the only gun that you can carry - should you not carry at all?

Blah, blah - if you get my drift. I'd rather have my NAA mini in 22 Mag than not, if I didn't have my bigger marginal handgun.

 

[champbulldog48]

22wmr

One of these posts states that a 22 lr has more velocity from a short barrel than some 22 wmr. I don't see how that is even possible. The magnum has more powder.....which equals more boom....which equals more speed. Pure physics.

 

[wnycollector]

I carry my .22 mag NAA mini daily and it is loaded with winchester 40gr FMJ. Once I find some of the Critical Defense and Gold Dot .22 mag ammo I would definitely shoot some over my chronograph and into some wet newspaper.

 

[HKFan9]

More powder in a short barrel doesn't mean all of it is going to burn while in the barrel. It was my understanding a .22mag is a good performing round out of a RIFLE, but not so much out of a handgun. The reason some people try to say the 5.7x28 is just like a .22mag is because the 5.7 reaches power levels of a .22 mag fired from a RIFLE, but its coming from a handgun.

I am no expert, these are only what I read on the interwebz, but I don't carry anything smaller than a 9mm, most of the times its either a 9mm or .45 on my side.

 

[Daekar]

HKFan, if I am interpreting things properly, I believe the hubub about these rounds is that they're using a quicker burning powder to make the best use of limited barrel real estate. Obviously a rifle will still be better, but I believe these rounds should make 22wmr pistols more effective.

 

[FrankenMauser]

More powder in a short barrel doesn't mean all of it is going to burn while in the barrel.

There are HUNDREDS of different smokeless propellants.

I can load 9mm to leave a 6" barrel at 1,150 fps, with 95% efficiency (powder consumed); and I can load 9mm to leave a 2" barrel at 1,150 fps, with 95% efficiency. It would be very stupid of me to use the same powder in both applications.

Adding more powder would never happen. Just adding more powder to the load will increase pressures, when some bored idiot decides to shoot the 'short-barrel' load in his rifle. Adding enough powder to reach good velocity in the short barrel would mean for case-rupturing pressure levels in the rifle. The extreme liability inherent to that situation prevents major ammunition companies from doing such (and, as mentioned - it's horribly inefficient to waste that powder, when a faster powder can achieve a ~99% burn).

As Daekar was trying to point out -
The safe way to obtain higher velocity in a short barrel, is to change powders. Going to a powder that has a much faster burn rate, but still won't exceed max pressure in handguns or rifles, is the answer.

Obviously a rifle will still be better, but I believe these rounds should make 22wmr pistols more effective.

Adding barrel length doesn't always increase velocity - especially with pistol ammunition and rimfires. There are several documented tests (on these very forums) where .22 LR, .380 Auto, 9x19mm, and .45 Auto actually began losing velocity in longer barrels. Even Chuck Hawks used to have a reference on his website, about a .22 WMR test, where a barrel was cut back 1 inch at a time. Velocity increased as the barrel was shortened, until somewhere around the 17" mark; then decreased, as the barrel was cut shorter.

Factory ammunition is designed to attain its highest velocity in a specific barrel length, whether it be pistol ammunition or rifle ammunition (or both, for cartridges like the .22 WMR, .22 LR, and .32-20). When you run shorter or longer than that length, you can experience a loss of velocity. It all boils down to a loss of pressure, since the expanding gases have reached their max pressure at the optimum barrel length. Slow burning rifle powders can negate the loss of velocity, with very long barrels (28", 30", and longer), but then you're arguing about whether the slow burning powder was used to optimize that load for longer barrels.

 

[Theophilus]

Who has this new ammo in stock?

Can anyone tell me where I can find either the Speer or the Hornady .22 mag defense ammo? I have tried local stores and even google searches and I cannot locate one retailer that has anything in stock. A few of you have said you've bought the Speer Gold Dot - but where???
THX

 

[Aristides]

Where to buy Speer GD 22 Magnum

I just bought four boxes from this website, thanks to help from another forum member:

http://www.holographic-sights.com/CCI-22WMR-40GR-GDHP-SHORT-BBL-50-p/cci954.htm

 

[Theophilus]

Thanks, Aristides. I think I'll get a box or two myself.

 

[bikerbill]

Gracias, Aristides ... just ordered two boxes ... funny site, I didn't see where ammo was listed as an option and a search turned up nothing ... but there they are selling .22mag ...

 

[mcwop]

At 50 yards, my Savage rifle puts 22 mag clear through almost 2" of soft pine on my target frame. The pine is soft, but not that soft.

 

[claydoctor]

My carry gun started off as a lightweight Commander, then became a .38 airweight J frame, then a Walther PP .380, then a Kel Tec 380 and now a .22 magnum Pug. You might say I'm downsizing. Yeah, I know about all that "no caliber that doesn't start with 4 stuff, but as has been alluded to earlier, better to have the Pug in my pocket that the Commander at home in the drawer. The bigger guns, even the KelTec, just drag my pants down too much. I just could not make myself carry on a regular basis The Pug in a pocket holster, I don't even know it is there so I am carrying more. One thing I would suggest though with the NAA mini guns, that before trusting it for CCW, make sure it works with your ammunition. I carried mine for a week before having a chance to shoot it, only to find that my gun would not function with the Winchester ammo the gun dealer sold me. One or two shots with the Winchester and the gun would lock up tight. Functions just fine with CCI.

 

[BGutzman]

I would look at the new "I Havent got a prayer" ammunition line by Wolf Ammunition

 

[m_liebst]

50yards my .22lr ruger pistol shoots through 3.5" of pine!?!

mcwop qouted: "At 50 yards, my Savage rifle puts 22 mag clear through almost 2" of soft pine on my target frame. The pine is soft, but not that soft."


Shoudn't your 22 wmr rifle do more than that??? That seems odd unless you're using defective ammo, or you've got an abused corroded barreled rifle- i believe the wmr velocities average around 1600 fps.? My 5.5 inch barreled 22lr mkIII had shot clean pass 3.5" of hardened pine/ fir around 50 yards with cci blazers averaging 1060 fps at the muzzle )

The left plank you see below is how far plain ole "remington subsonics penetrate"-at same distance!!:)- velocity averaging allmost 900 fps at the muzzle).

The plank on the right that ya see in the picture didn't stop the cci blazers. They went completely through. Second picture shows ya how far i shot, around 50 yards. If ya look just beyond the road you'll see the plank, which was 5.5 by 3.5 inches.

If you know your piece like an extention of your arm/ body and you have 10+ rounds at your disposal, your not going to need 500 + foot pounds of energy. Very few bad guys are gonna stay long enough to check your gun make or caliber, especially if ya got an itchy trigger finger. Just gotta know where to hit. In my ruger mk3, double taps are easy crisp and fast/ try seeing how crisp, fast and easy it is to do that with the .45. especially when your target is only 10 feet away. Every advantage has a give and take IMO.

Don't care who says .22lrs?/ 22wmrs etc. are not effective.
snubnose, medium size hand gun, or rifle....they're all effective with practice.
better then your fists, a bat, your rotweiler and we could keep going>>>

 

[Mandell]

The .22 is such a small cross section, it penetrates very well even with 100ft/lbs and 40 gr. Stories about about .22's "bouncing around" inside a body, and with such a small cross section even 100ft/lbs takes a while to shed enough energy to come to rest.

I have a 3" barrel .22 mouse gun and I put one round of Aguila 40gr 1470fps (out of a 20" barrel, definitely subsonic out of a 3" barrel) in it, took aim at two 2x4's stacked on top of each other on concrete. I found the round under the lumber, having hit the concrete with enough energy to completely melt the bullet. What was left was a solidified puddle about .02" thick.

Out of a rifle, hot .22LR is 200ft/lbs, .22 mag is 300ft/lbs. So yea, out of a rifle it will definitely go through your coat, and your sternum. Out of handgun, maybe.

 

[m_liebst]

.22lr from 3 inch + barrel will go through the coat & sternum!!

With a well maintained fire arm with a barrel 3" or more, and good ammunition( velociters, hyper velocity solid round point) 40 grains a lead is gonna go straight through the damn sternum, even with a heavy coat. Remember in a defence situation, we're not shooting someone from a field away. More like 5 to 15 feet,... that means the bullet is still pretty much at muzzle velocity.. 3 inch barrel + velociter equals average of 1000+ fps which is more than enough for penetration.

IMO- you gotta be crazey to think your heavy jacket is gonna slow a round down enough!
Another facter that makes .22 ammo lethal is that penetration becomes easier as the bullet diameter decreases. as Mandell stated

 

[publius]

I wouldn't be afraid one bit ro carry a ,22 mag. That Kel-Tec 30 rounder looks interesting BUT having to load the rounds in the mag "just so" makes me really nervous.