.22 Mag to 5.7X28 or Not?

natman

New member
I don't know about the Excel, I can't find any diagrams or descriptions on its design. I do note that it has a large rectangular bolt. It might be possible to get enough weight with it.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to make a centerfire blowback rifle. Winchester did it for years with the 351SL and other Self Loading cartridges. But they had huge bolts with very heavy underhanging brackets to add weight. They also didn't have the disadvantage of bottlenecked cartridges.

I do have some reservations about whether it's possible to get a heavy enough bolt assembly given the space restrictions of the 700.
 

Jim Watson

New member
Frank DeHaas converted a 1903 Winchester from .22 Winchester Auto to .22 WRM. Even with such a relatively small increase in case length and pressure, he had to design and install a retarder to convert it from blowback to delayed blowback.

I have read that even in the delayed blowback FN Five seven, the case shoulder is blown forward noticeably as the action comes back under pressure.
Reloading the 5.7 is said to be tricky. There was a long thread on THR about a kaBoomed FN whose owner just couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
I say again: Do it and let us know what happens. That is the only way folks learn, one way or another.

Jim
 

barnbwt

New member
Emphatically no. 5.7 runs typically at 50,000, but the volumes involved are so small that even small setback, crimp, or charge deviations can send pressures to maximum or beyond (you'd better have a safety margin above 50k; Wiki says CIP requires it to be good to 125% of that, too)

The 5.7 has a very high impulse bolt thrust for its size due to this pressure, but it is very brief. This means the bolt weight:spring resistance ratio must be heavily tilted toward the bolt's weight, unless you are using a really long buffer tube.

If the spring is heavy enough to resist the bolt thrust itself, the bolt will be halted long before it can cycle fully since the chamber pressure is gone before it can build up enough momentum to overcome the spring. Cocking the action will also be hard to do manually, and the bolt will slam closed very violently. The spring also delivers the least force when you need it most; extended in battery. The bolt's contribution is always there, until the pressure drops and it is no longer needed to resist the thrust. If the bolt is heavy, it will be slow to get moving, like you want, and its great momentum will carry the bolt back to cycle the action, to smack your shoulder when it bottoms out in the tube. This is why simple blowbacks start to get really bad recoil mechanics in heavier calibers (people get cheek slap from 45ACP in CX4s). Since the 5.7x28 isn't a heavy caliber, the recoil would still be light, but you'd need a fairly heavy bolt. I've read that the PS90 has carbide weights in its bolt to get the mass it needs. People trying even slightly hotter hand-loads still need to add additional mass to get reliable function, though.

The Five-seven is indeed a delayed-blowback. The slide mass is not close to sufficient for simple blowback. It has several delays, in fact, which FNH had to use in conjunction with one another for the gun to operate--and it is a very narrow path the gun treads, albeit reliably. The cases are Teflon-coated to reduce friction and case stretch so head-separation isn't a constant threat. The barrel recoils with the bolt a short ways, the two locked together by the case-wall friction, and the neck blowing forward all the while.

It's hard enough to get even a 22WMR semi-auto to work safely and reliably. Ruger will no longer touch the subject. A 5.7x28 will have the same impediments, but more so. I'd want weights of the PS90 and Masterpiece Arms bolts/springs, as well as a summary of other delay-factors like friction or hammer-weight, before taking this idea much further. The little round is forced to operate on a knife edge between short cycling and rupture, and requires consistency in all things. If you must do it, start with the bolt as heavy as possible and shave it down from there until it works. Adding a heavier spring will do comparatively little to halt the instantaneous movement of the bolt under load, and will make the cycle much more violent.

TCB
 

DarthNul

New member
Once-fired brass may be more available now but don't plan to reload that brass more than once or twice.

I understand the FiveSeven brass has a polymer coating that FN claims is crucial to the round feeding and extracting properly. I doubt the coating will withstand annealing, and repairing/replacing the coating, if it can be done, will affect your ammo economics.
 

backbencher

New member
A six page instruction manual by a very bright young man on why not to make your bolt too light when monkeying around w/ non-standard actions and high-pressure cartridges:

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20323&PN=1

2C48F_IMAG0735.jpg
 
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