15 greatest handguns of all time - I think "sort of".
- Thread starter Doyle
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
I think the High Standard's place is taken up by the Colt Woodsman and by the S&W 41.
I'd gladly put a High Standard Supermatic in in place of the 41, though. I think it had far more tenancy on the shooting sports than the 41.
As for the Python, I've always considered it to be a high end botique gun.
I'd gladly put a High Standard Supermatic in in place of the 41, though. I think it had far more tenancy on the shooting sports than the 41.
As for the Python, I've always considered it to be a high end botique gun.
For many years, the same could have been said about the S&W 27 and 29, but they're getting votes?
The Python, as the ultimate development of the original swing-out cylinder revolver, is more deserving than any of the S&Ws that did make the list (YMMV).
I think the Cobra would probably be the best choice, as it embodies all of Colt's influence on revolver design; the swing-out cylinder, the alloy frame, and the snubby.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The 27 started out as a high-end botique gun, but its reception and the demand turned it into a production gun. That was never true of the 29.
The Python, on the other hand, went the other direction, finally ending up in the Colt Custom Shop with a price tag to match.
The Python, on the other hand, went the other direction, finally ending up in the Colt Custom Shop with a price tag to match.
spacecoast
New member
The omission of the Luger is inexcusable. I'd also like to see some earlier guns, such as the Colt 1860 or the Remington 1858. They could drop a couple of the rimfires and the CZ-75 (and the Sig for that matter). I did like the inclusion of the P38, but not at the expense of the P08.
The Colt 1903/08 and the New Service would also be worthy additions.
The Colt 1903/08 and the New Service would also be worthy additions.
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If we're going strictly my designs which were most influential, then the Model 10/M&P beats out the Python easily in terms of both longevity and popularity. While it's argued that the S&W wasn't innovative since Colt beat them to the market with a swing-out cylinder DA revolver, the internals of S&W and Colt revolvers are quite different and history has demonstrated the S&W action to be both more durable and more economical to produce.
Also, the Python, while of exquisite quality, wasn't really all that innovative as nearly all the "improvements" that it possessed over previous models were cosmetic. In reality, the Python was really just the final refinement of much older revolvers. Really, the Python was simply a refined version of the Trooper/.357 Magnum which itself was one in a series of refinements of the Army Special which had been introduced in 1908. The lockwork of the Python was not significantly different than that of earlier Colt revolvers. If one wanted to include a Colt DA revolver on the list based solely on innovation and/or influence, I think that the New Army/New Navy or Detective Special would be better additions than the Python.
Now, I will not argue that a compelling case could be made for the Python if we're taking into consideration factors such as aesthetic appeal and quality of production though I would point out that the Python is not unrivaled in these aspects (the S&W M27/Registered Magnum, Manurhin MR-73, and Korth revolvers are considered by many to be equal or superior to the Python).
I definitely think that the S&W Model 27/Registered Magnum should have made the list due to both its influence (the first successful Magnum handgun) and it's quality (it was S&W's flagship handgun for decades). I can also see an argument for the S&W M29 because the .44 Magnum was the first cartridge to truly legitimize the notion of hunting big game with a handgun.
An argument could also be made, I think, for the Webley and Enfield top-break military revolvers as these were the last revolvers to be used as standard-issue by a major military power.
As others have mentioned, I think that the Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" and Luger deserve places on the list because they were the first successful semi-automatic pistol and the first semi-automatic pistol to be adopted by a major military respectively. A compelling argument could also be made for the C-93 Borchardt since it was the first semi-automatic pistol.
I also agree that the Walther PP should have made the list if for no other reason than that it was the first successful DA/SA semi-automatic pistol. I also think that at least one of the earlier Browning semi-auto pistol designs deserves a spot with the FN Model 1900 coming most immediately to mind.
Also, the Python, while of exquisite quality, wasn't really all that innovative as nearly all the "improvements" that it possessed over previous models were cosmetic. In reality, the Python was really just the final refinement of much older revolvers. Really, the Python was simply a refined version of the Trooper/.357 Magnum which itself was one in a series of refinements of the Army Special which had been introduced in 1908. The lockwork of the Python was not significantly different than that of earlier Colt revolvers. If one wanted to include a Colt DA revolver on the list based solely on innovation and/or influence, I think that the New Army/New Navy or Detective Special would be better additions than the Python.
Now, I will not argue that a compelling case could be made for the Python if we're taking into consideration factors such as aesthetic appeal and quality of production though I would point out that the Python is not unrivaled in these aspects (the S&W M27/Registered Magnum, Manurhin MR-73, and Korth revolvers are considered by many to be equal or superior to the Python).
I definitely think that the S&W Model 27/Registered Magnum should have made the list due to both its influence (the first successful Magnum handgun) and it's quality (it was S&W's flagship handgun for decades). I can also see an argument for the S&W M29 because the .44 Magnum was the first cartridge to truly legitimize the notion of hunting big game with a handgun.
An argument could also be made, I think, for the Webley and Enfield top-break military revolvers as these were the last revolvers to be used as standard-issue by a major military power.
As others have mentioned, I think that the Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" and Luger deserve places on the list because they were the first successful semi-automatic pistol and the first semi-automatic pistol to be adopted by a major military respectively. A compelling argument could also be made for the C-93 Borchardt since it was the first semi-automatic pistol.
I also agree that the Walther PP should have made the list if for no other reason than that it was the first successful DA/SA semi-automatic pistol. I also think that at least one of the earlier Browning semi-auto pistol designs deserves a spot with the FN Model 1900 coming most immediately to mind.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"But all S&W swing-out revolvers were based on Colt's design, so the influence runs the other way."
Apparently not the case, as had Colt come up with the concept as original cloth, they would have patented it.
They didn't, because someone else beat them to the punch with the swing out cylinder but apparently didn't patent the concept.
Remember, only a few years separated S&W and Colt from the nasty battles over the bored-through cylinder. It was originally developed by a Colt employee, who was told to go stuff himself, so he sold it to S&W.
When Colt realized how badly they had screwed up, they went to court to try to invalidate S&W's exclusive use of the bored through cylinder.
They lost.
They had no intentions of making that mistake again, but when it came to the swing out cylinder, they couldn't patent it. It wasn't an original concept developed by them.
The origins of the swing out cylinder were discussed a few years ago in a thread here.
And, as noted, the swing out cylinder was only part of the package. The lockwork is perhaps the bigger part of the package, and at that S&W's design proved to be the better.
Apparently not the case, as had Colt come up with the concept as original cloth, they would have patented it.
They didn't, because someone else beat them to the punch with the swing out cylinder but apparently didn't patent the concept.
Remember, only a few years separated S&W and Colt from the nasty battles over the bored-through cylinder. It was originally developed by a Colt employee, who was told to go stuff himself, so he sold it to S&W.
When Colt realized how badly they had screwed up, they went to court to try to invalidate S&W's exclusive use of the bored through cylinder.
They lost.
They had no intentions of making that mistake again, but when it came to the swing out cylinder, they couldn't patent it. It wasn't an original concept developed by them.
The origins of the swing out cylinder were discussed a few years ago in a thread here.
And, as noted, the swing out cylinder was only part of the package. The lockwork is perhaps the bigger part of the package, and at that S&W's design proved to be the better.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, the Iver Johnson 1879 was apparently the first side-swing cylinder in a solid frame, beating Colt to the concept by nearly 10 years and S&W by 15 or so.
See this for a picture...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4878776&postcount=70
See this for a picture...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4878776&postcount=70
As Mike Irwin pointed out, the swing-out cylinder is pretty much the point at which similarity between the Colt and S&W end. The lockwork of the S&W is completely different and has proven itself to be more durable and easier to produce. Point of fact, Colt eventually changed their own lockwork beginning with the Mk. III series of revolvers to make them more S&W-like. S&W's basic lockwork isn't all that different today than it was in the 1890's and, unlike Colt, it has been imitated by several other revolver makers (Taurus and Rossi come immediately to mind).
Also, the Python was not the first revolver, or even the first Colt revolver, to have a swing-out cylinder. As I said before, if you wanted a Colt on the list for influence the New Army/New Navy would be a better choice.
Gregory Gauvin
New member
I agree these are some of the best 15 handguns ever produced, however, as stated earlier in these posts, clearly the list should have been extended to 16.
If you have never fired a Makarov PM, you have been severely neglected in your life amongst firearms. Although a host of soviet block pistols exist such as the P64, and Tok, and CZ-52, and PA-63, the Polish Wanad...The Makarov PM is pure beauty in simplistic design, very accurate, and fits the hand as if it should had been there when you existed the womb. Nearly impossible to break and once inexpensive. Not ideal for combat in terms of power, but a gem for any firearm enthusiast.
Available ammunition is still abundant, but mostly under powered junk. I find that cutting down 9mm NATO cases and forming them to 9x18, seating a 95 grain berry plated to .980 OAL with a 6.4 grain charge of HS-6 probably gets you 1050-1100 ft/sec over that weak, steal cased dirty wolf stuff. And this load, in my Bulgarian, can drive in penny nails at 25 yards.
If you have never fired a Makarov PM, you have been severely neglected in your life amongst firearms. Although a host of soviet block pistols exist such as the P64, and Tok, and CZ-52, and PA-63, the Polish Wanad...The Makarov PM is pure beauty in simplistic design, very accurate, and fits the hand as if it should had been there when you existed the womb. Nearly impossible to break and once inexpensive. Not ideal for combat in terms of power, but a gem for any firearm enthusiast.
Available ammunition is still abundant, but mostly under powered junk. I find that cutting down 9mm NATO cases and forming them to 9x18, seating a 95 grain berry plated to .980 OAL with a 6.4 grain charge of HS-6 probably gets you 1050-1100 ft/sec over that weak, steal cased dirty wolf stuff. And this load, in my Bulgarian, can drive in penny nails at 25 yards.
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