125 yard pistol accuracy?

[Gaerek]

My point in #28 was in direct response to Buckrub in #27 who was disparaging those who only practice shorter "defensive" distances. You seem to take that to mean that my point is somehow that a handgun is a short range tool. I've said numerous times that I believe it's possible to use a handgun at longer ranges, but it's inefficient at it, and given the chances at being in a long range shootout being very slim, it doesn't make sense, from a practical, defensive standpoint, to train further out than 50 yards or so.

I even showed a situation in an earlier post where an Air Force SF fired 4 shots at 70 yards with an M9, and hit 2 out of 4. That's extraordinary. You will not find much better practical, defensive shooting, in a real life situation than that. 125 yards, in a shootout with nothing but a 1911 is a sucky place to be against a shooter with a rifle, and your chances are very slim. In that situation, I'd be wishing I had a rifle. Just the same as I'd be wishing I had a handgun in a situation where I was 10 yards from an aggressor with a handgun, and all I had was a knife. Could I win this fight? It's possible, but improbable.

In your scenario of unloading a 1911 at 125 yards as quick as you can, you're right, I wouldn't want to be in front of that, even if I were prone, and all you had was about a 10 inch target. But if I had a rifle...well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion. I can empty an AR magazine very quickly, and I'll bet I can get better than 75% on a human target with it at 125 yards. Unfortunately, now we're degenerating to what if's, and that's rarely constructive.

Is it possible to hit something at 125 yards with a handgun? Yes, of course. Is the book full of crap? Without a doubt. Is a handgun a good weapon for those kind of ranges? It will work, but it's far from the optimum tool. Is it a good idea to practice a bunch of different disciplines? You bet. It's good to be prepared for as many situations as possible. My training is limited to 20 yards, mainly because most of my shooting is done at a 20 yard indoor range, due to a variety of reasons. But if I can get out to the nearby outdoor range, I'll push myself to 50 yards. Rarely will I go out further than that with a handgun, mostly because it's not practical to use up a ton of ammo past that, though I will go further, just so I can get a feel for it, and to figure out how, just in case.

 

[BoogieMan]

125 yds with a 45cal. I guess it will do it but you could watch the slug fly through the air. They leave the barrel at around 1000fps. By time they get to 125 yds what are they traveling? 68 fps. Most snipers could probably duck out of the way when they saw the flash of the muzzle. If your talking 357, 327, 41 or probably any other rnd beside a 45 then it would be realistic

 

[JD0x0]

They leave the barrel at around 1000fps. By time they get to 125 yds what are they traveling? 68 fps. Most snipers could probably duck out of the way when they saw the flash of the muzzle.

ballistic calc says 861 FPS @ 125 yrds with a 230 gr round nose at sea level and 0 degrees Fahrenheit temp.
Time of flight at that range is .41 seconds. So it is plausible for a sniper to duck under cover before the bullet reaches him, if he's really sharp.

 

[tipoc]

In the book I am reading, the hero is shot at but only grazed by a rifle bullet from a sniper, laying prone, 125 yards away. He and his wife each pull their model 1911s and fire back, two magazines each. Of aproximately 30 rounds, the sniper is hit 25 times.

Well, if the "sniper" is hit 25 out of 30 or so times, clearly he's not much of a "sniper". To be hit that often means he clearly he had no cover but instead sought concealment behind a clear plastic sheet.

Could be though, he said to himself, "Darn it! All these rocks and trees and bushes and such that I'm hunkered down behind of make it hard for me to see! Best if I get out in front of them where I can get a clear view."

Then after he'd been hit likely he said to himself, "Darn it! I've been shot 3 or so times. Probably just lucky shots. It's best if I just lie here as still as I can get. They're bound to start missing pretty soon! I mean what are the odds? Likely they train only for 'shorter defensive distances', they'll start missing soon enough.

"What's that old question? If it's pouring rain do you get more wet if you stand still for 30 seconds or if you run for the same time? I believe it's when ya stay still." He likely said.

Now that I've thought about this I wonder...why did I think about this?

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Maybe this is fun.

From Boogieman:

125 yds with a 45cal. I guess it will do it but you could watch the slug fly through the air. They leave the barrel at around 1000fps. By time they get to 125 yds what are they traveling? 68 fps. Most snipers could probably duck out of the way when they saw the flash of the muzzle. If your talking 357, 327, 41 or probably any other rnd beside a 45 then it would be realistic

Boogieman is poking fun of course but;

Let's see Hornady TAP 230 gr. jhp from a 5" barrel leaves the muzzle at a claimed 950 fps with 461 ft pds of energy, at 125 yards it's doing 855 fps and 360 ft pds of energy.

The Remington 230 gr jhp leaves the same barrel at 835 fps. and at 125 is doing 751 fps with with 289 ft. pds. of energy left to it, enough for serious hurt and a good momentum to penetrate.

No need to look at faster 200 gr. loads and bullets cuz ya get the point from the above.

From JD0x0:

Time of flight at that range is .41 seconds. So it is plausible for a sniper to duck under cover before the bullet reaches him, if he's really sharp.

With less than one second to see the round coming and duck and with 30 + rounds coming your way you'd likely have to be a Matrix type ducker or be on the Professional Dodge Ball circuit, if they had such, to be able to force a miss.

But it's irrelevant because the "sniper" was already laying down and decided to stay put and not move as he was protected by his Brock-A-Brella.

tipoc

 

[Matno]

If my target were two life-sized silhouette targets side by side, I can hit them every time at 200 yards with my p226. Smaller than that would require shooting from a rest and/or a lot of luck. The cool thing at that range is I hit almost right at point of aim (i.e. no hold over required). Weird.

 

[AZAK]

Are you saying you'd rather have a handgun at long range than say a rifle? I'll agree that at any range, a handgun is better than nothing, but at such extreme distances, a handgun is practically useless for defensive purposes. If I were in the situation outlined by the OP, certainly, I'd do everything I could do, but I'm a realist. There's practically no way I will win this fight.

I would venture that most of us do not walk around daily with a rifle. Often we do have a handgun with us.

125 yards in not an "extreme distance" for many handgun shooters.

All that it takes is one well aimed shot; even in a "defensive purpose".

I would take a moment to consider mindset.

To paraphrase an old saying, "I am the weapon, my gun is a tool. Or is it I am a tool and my gun is the weapon." It almost always comes down to the person behind the trigger, not as much as what "hardware" is connected to the trigger.

Sure, most rifles are easier to hit your target with at 125 yards than most handguns, but that does not mean that one can not easily hit a target at 125 yards with a handgun; unless you do not have the skill set to do so or are physically unable to do so.

Don't be surprised if when you argue for your limitations, that they are granted.

YMMV

 

[kcub]

http://listverse.com/2009/11/13/top-10-snipers-in-history/

Scroll down to #1, a Finn who took 200 Russians with a Suomi 9mm.

 

[BuckRub]

I k ow I can hit most 10" gongs at 100 yards and sure many here can do the same. And the ones who say not- I'm sure you never practice for it and can't. There's some on here who prob can't even hit at 10 yards. We all train different and there's some who don't really even train.

 

[OkieGentleman]

I save my plastic milk jugs and take them to the range. Fill them with water from the faucet at the range and leave off the lids. My grandchildren and myself regularly hit them at 50 yards. You know you hit it because of the fountain you get when you hit one. You should have seen my grandson's face the first time he hit a water jug with a 45ACP. To heck with the gong put out a water jug.

 

[BuckRub]

Yes water jugs are a blast. I save mine sometimes and shoot them here at my house. Really fun.

 

[Gaerek]

Don't be surprised if when you argue for your limitations, that they are granted.

I wouldn't argue for my limitations, however, I am a realist. Although shooting at another human being in self defense, and hitting a stationary target utilize some of the same basic marksmanship skills (sight picture, trigger control, etc) they are completely different beasts, yet people keep lumping them together. They think if they can do it slowfire, on a square range with no pressure, that they can do it rapid fire, being shot at by your target, while you're moving and trying to find cover, and your target it likely either moving, or setup in a way to make it VERY difficult for them to be hit.

Why is it that supposedly well trained police officer can only hit their targets 34% of the time?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

Although ranges to target aren't discussed in that article, I believe it would be safe to assume most of those gun fights were at relatively short ranges (certainly not out to 125 yards). And I would bet that a majority of them are at 10 yards or less. Now, we could discuss the quality of training the police get, or whatever, but I'm willing to bet most of those officers involved in shootings could hit 100% at anything out to 25 yards on a human sized target. But adding in a single factor...being shot at and your life being in jeopardy drops that down by 66%.

Push it out to over 100 yards, which even some of the more skilled marksman have trouble hitting 100% of the time with a combat handgun with iron sights, and you can see why I have trouble believing that anyone could get a decent hit rate at that distance, while being shot at. Of course, if I were being shot at by someone with a rifle at over 100 yards and all I have is my Glock, you better believe I'm going to fight back. I can hit a 10in gong at 100 yards. I know how to do it with my gun. But the realist in me says I'm going to have a tough time getting anything to hit.

Now, most of us have probably seen Bob Munden's seemingly impossible shots, such as:

The 200 yard, with a snubbie - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=Tied-t1fFsk

or the 600 yard shot with a .44 Magnum (can't seem to find a video)

These are great shots, but do you think he would have been able to do them if the balloon was shooting back?

Hitting a human sized target with a handgun at over 100 yards is most certainly possible. I would bet most people on this forum who have been shooting for a while have been done it. That same feat, while being shot at by someone with a rifle? Possible? Ok sure...but highly improbable. That's all I'm trying to say here.

I'm not arguing for limitations. That would be like saying you can use a flathead screwdriver as a chisel. Will it work? It sure will, but the results aren't going to be as good as if you used the proper tool for the job. You could say I'm arguing for the limitations of the screwdriver, but I'm just being realistic. The screwdriver is designed to drive screws. A handgun is a compromise. It gives you a decent amount of firepower in a small package that's easy to carry around and hide. If it were easy to carry a rifle, we'd all carry that. We must understand the limitations of the tools we use, before we can use them well.

A handgun vs. a rifle at 125 yards is no contest, especially when the person with the rifle gets the drop on you. Could you get lucky? Is it possible to win with the handgun? Yeah, I suppose, but it's improbable.

Ok, I've beat my point into the ground. No sense trying anymore. Bowing out of the thread...

 

[armoredman]

If my target were two life-sized silhouette targets side by side, I can hit them every time at 200 yards with my p226. Smaller than that would require shooting from a rest and/or a lot of luck. The cool thing at that range is I hit almost right at point of aim (i.e. no hold over required). Weird.

Couldja do that on video for me? I'd like to see that.

 

[BuckRub]

Yea I would like to see that video too. Lol. When this first started we were talking about making hits at longer ranges , period. Then it went from there to long range an BG shooting back. Lol really different. Sure if you can make 10 yard shot still that's one thing then do it blind folded , spinning in circles,weak handed its harder. This has gotton rediculos now.

 

[Gaerek]

When this first started we were talking about making hits at longer ranges , period. Then it went from there to long range an BG shooting back.

Did you even read the OP's first post? Here it is, bold faced is mine for emphasis:

In the book I am reading, the hero is shot at but only grazed by a rifle bullet from a sniper, laying prone, 125 yards away. He and his wife each pull their model 1911s and fire back, two magazines each. Of aproximately 30 rounds, the sniper is hit 25 times.

So, actually, a BG shooting back was part of this thread since the beginning. Others (such as yourself) turned it into an Internet Urinating Contest of how far they could accurately hit a target with a handgun. My point has always been hitting something from 125 yards with a handgun isn't terribly difficult. Given enough time and practice, anyone can do it. But with a sniper firing at you with a rifle, that same feat is pretty close to impossible.

 

[BuckRub]

My bad for the first post if it started there but if shooting bullseye or laying prone and shooting at BG I see no difference. You may be so scared you couldn't make the shot but I don't believe my bullets could care less. My training would make my bullets hit the same.

 

[armoredman]

Here's me at 50 yards, haven't done the 100 yard video yet - scared to accidentally destroy my stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx-rQYeHTug

Anyone else wanna pony up?

 

[AZAK]

Gaerek said:
post 55

Others (such as yourself) turned it into an Internet Urinating Contest of how far they could accurately hit a target with a handgun

post 28

Hell, I've hit things out to 200 yards with a handgun before

slow fire, bullseye shooting from 100 yards. Anyone can do that adequately.

50 yards is about my maximum with some level of consistancy and accuracy, in a controlled situation.

Ahh, so you're that guy who goes to the range...

post 39

Hitting a human sized target at 125 with a handgun, slow fire is certainly possible, and I've done it several times (well, never shot at anything past 100 yard with a handgun, anyway).

post 41

I'll push myself to 50 yards. Rarely will I go out further than that with a handgun, mostly because it's not practical to use up a ton of ammo past that, though I will go further, just so I can get a feel for it, and to figure out how, just in case.

post 52

Push it out to over 100 yards, which even some of the more skilled marksman have trouble hitting 100% of the time with a combat handgun with iron sights

I can hit a 10in gong at 100 yards. I know how to do it with my gun.

Hitting a human sized target with a handgun at over 100 yards is most certainly possible. I would bet most people on this forum who have been shooting for a while have been done it.

Perhaps one can understand my confusion of what exactly are you saying; after reading your comments above.
post 52

A handgun vs. a rifle at 125 yards is no contest, especially when the person with the rifle gets the drop on you. Could you get lucky? Is it possible to win with the handgun? Yeah, I suppose, but it's improbable.

I can understand your position from this statement. The rest of the above quotes, not so much.

 

[Spats McGee]

Spittin' contest is over, folks.