12 Guage for Home Defense?

[Nnobby45]

Well, if the Bird Shot load in 12g is inadaquate.
Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????

Someone or anyone .....Explain

The .410 shells for the Judge can be loaded with lethal buck shot that penetrates vital organs with multiple projectiles.

Sounds like you're comparing a birdshot loaded .410 to a birdshot loaded 12 ga.

Birdshot being adequate/inadequate for SD is a rather general statement.

It's common knowledge that birdshot at very close range is lethal. If you understand the limitations of birdshot, then you have a good SD load within it's effective range------which happens to be FAR less than a 00 buck load.

And if your assailant is trying to kill you from behind the cover of a couch or large chair, even at close range the birdshot is a very poor penetrater and wouldn't have any punch left if it did.
#4 buck is about the least effective buckshot load, but is popular with some because of it's lack of penetration for safety reasons---which is why it's less effective tactically. We all have to assess our own situations and work out our own compromises.

The penetration factor you choose can be your friend or enemy. But it's your choice.

 

[batmann]

My choice of a shotgun is a Browning BPS 'Tactical'. The only thing I have added is a good dedicated weapon light and mount. It is a little heavier than a Mossy or Remington, but I like the buttom eject, tang safety and the fact it is all steel. I have another BPS I use for hunting and I have found the BPS series to be stone cold reliable under any weather conditions and I hunt Geese in some pretty bad weather.
For HD, any GOOD 2 3/4 00 Buck should work. IMHO I don't think you would want to use anything else. If you ever need it, that is not the time to realize you should have used 00.

 

[hogdogs]

Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????

the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????

Pretty much spot on...

It was the behavior choice of a certain pharmacist following the use of a Judge and .410 that got him locked up for LIFE!

Shot the punk in the head and when he returned from chasing and shooting "AT" the second robber (the armed one), he noticed he was ALIVE so he got a minimal size pistol and sunk 5 more rounds in him...

The .410 happened to knock the kid down and in this case the teenager wasn't up for more scrappin' so it did "Stop this threat"... But buckshot properly dosed stops ANY threat!

Brent

 

[Nnobby45]

Quote:
the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????

----------------------------------------------
Pretty much spot on...
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It was the behavior choice of a certain pharmacist following the use of a Judge and .410 that got him locked up for LIFE!

Shot the punk in the head and when he returned from chasing and shooting "AT" the second robber (the armed one), he noticed he was ALIVE so he got a minimal size pistol and sunk 5 more rounds in him...



What does the pharmacist's "behaviour choice" have to do with The Judge, that worked well enough to incapacitate the punk and render him so defenseless that it prompted a murder charge when he was shot again?

A .410 is no superior defense gun loaded with birdshot, especially in a pistol that spreads out so fast, but Winchester's Super-X load shows a 2 1/2" shell with three 000 buck shot and the 3" shell with 5. Velocity 1300 fps.

Each 000 buck is about 36 caliber and weighs about 70 grs.

3 would be fairly potent at close range with all placed COM. Yep, they'd spread out quick---range would be limited.

Five 000 buck at spittin' distance would rival the 12 ga. 8 pellet load at 18 to 20 yds. from a cyl. bore.

The Judge wouldn't be my choice for SD in the home or on the street. It's concept (half pistol, half shotgun) doesn't interest me and I'm a little surprised at it's popularity. But, hat's off to their marketing dept.

 

[Nnobby45]

Birdshot will do the job if close enough.

So will 00.

With 00, close enough is about 25 yards, give or take some.

With previous Fed. Tac LE buckshot, my Scattergun Tech cyl. bore is about a 15 to 18 yd. gun with a rapidly widening pattern after that.

With the current Fed. Tack low recoil LE with FliteControl wad (now standard) shot pattern is simply awesom. Some patterns 6 to 7" at 25yds.

Pic is hard to see, but top circle is 25yd. Right below it, 20yds. And 15 yds. on the bottom. Fed. Tac with FlitControl from Scattergun Tech cyl. bore. The 10 yd. pattern, covered by the pistol, is no pattern---just a big hole.

 

[hogdogs]

What does the pharmacist's "behaviour choice" have to do with The Judge, that worked well enough to incapacitate the punk and render him so defenseless that it prompted a murder charge when he was shot again?

A .410 is no superior defense gun loaded with birdshot, especially in a pistol that spreads out so fast, but Winchester's Super-X load shows a 2 1/2" shell with three 000 buck shot and the 3" shell with 5. Velocity 1300 fps.

Each 000 buck is about 36 caliber and weighs about 70 grs.

3 would be fairly potent at close range with all placed COM. Yep, they'd spread out quick---range would be limited.

Five 000 buck at spittin' distance would rival the 12 ga. 8 pellet load at 18 to 20 yds. from a cyl. bore.

The Judge wouldn't be my choice for SD in the home or on the street. It's concept (half pistol, half shotgun) doesn't interest me and I'm a little surprised at it's popularity. But, hat's off to their marketing dept

Lets say the pharmacist did what he felt right doing... He feared this living assailant/robber/punk/thug/lowlife was going to get back up and continue the attack...

So .410 to the head isn't adequate from, at least, a Judge and it's short barrel...

Now had I leveled on him with either my 20 gauge loaded with my pet load (easily obtained locally) of #3 buckshot or a 12 gauge with 00 buck, I am guessing the outcome would have been very different!

Brent

 

[Nnobby45]

So .410 to the head isn't adequate from, at least, a Judge and it's short barrel...

It's becoming difficult to convince you that the Judge, with whatever load the pharmacist used, was adequate to completely incapacitate him to the extent that further shooting was called murder. As I recall, the punk was still lying there, having gone nowhere, when the pharmacist returned after dealing with the other punks.

If you want to blame the Judge, rather than the actions of the pharmacist, by contending that another firearm would have killed him outright (preventing the pharmacist from shooting him again), then I'd remind you that the type of incapacitation that occurred was consistent with more conventional firearms.

 

[kaylorinhi]

check centurian, not the 2 3/4 but the 2 inch stuff, I am going to buy some this pay check and check them outmight fit the bill, just another route

 

[hogdogs]

NO... I am not condoning his behavior choice... And in this case, the perp was down... But as I said, my intention is to know full well that I won't have to think about him deciding to re-engage.

Not me... I want the mostest bang for the buck and a .410 ain't it.

Now had this guy soaked up either load I mentioned... am pretty sure I would have busted my butt on his blood as I ran back in to call the cleaning crew in blue.

Brent

 

[Cheapshooter]

I got some of this from Cabela's. Works great in my 870 Express 18"

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=857119

 

[TheKlawMan]

Nnobby45, If you are awakened at 3 in the morning by the sound of your front door being kicked in and you have time to grab one weapon before the intruder, armedd with a .38, reaches your bedroom door, would you rather that weapon was a Taurus Judge loaded with .410 or a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buck?

 

[trg42wraglefragle]

After patterning my shotgun at 15yrds with birdshot, Yes it may not drop the person dead but I highly doubt that they are going to be functioning properly after getting hit, and are going to be the same treat they were before being shot. Unless they're high on something, but that just brings in a whole lot more variables.

Where I live I would much rather use birdshot than buckshot, but our laws are a lot different to US ones.

 

[Nnobby45]

Nnobby45, If you are awakened at 3 in the morning by the sound of your front door being kicked in and you have time to grab one weapon before the intruder, armedd with a .38, reaches your bedroom door, would you rather that weapon was a Taurus Judge loaded with .410 or a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buck?

That's a hypothetical.

What's actually handy (available now gun) is a pistol. Mine doesn't happen to be a Judge, it's the pistol I carried that day depending on what struck my fancy.

For some, that pistol would be The Judge loaded with buckshot.

Two steps away is an 870 w/LE 00 buck, and a P226 with 15 rds. in a holster afixed to the back of a dresser. I may not be able to get to those, or even get out of bed, and the gun at arms length will have to do

I don't like the Judge. I don't want to buy one. If I won one in a raffle, that and a few hundred dollars would get me another SIG. Or maybe I could trade it for a PX4 Storm---I'd trade it for something.

I do not think The Judge is anything close to the equlvilent of a buckshot loaded 12. Never claimed it was. Any multiple projectiles fired by me will be coming out of a 12 ga. and there will be 8 or 9 or 'em.


AND , some people have the dang things, and I would not underestimate the lethality of 3 to 5 000 buck at an advertised vel. of 1300 fps. ( less in the pistol, but still lethal). At very close range, effectivness may equal or surpass that of the .45 Colt---don't know. I'll bet the 3in.'s 5 pellets would.

I'm trying my best to abide by the board rules and not attack people or opinions.---so I won't. Never the less, it's difficult to refrain from attacking some opinions that barely reach the level of prepubescent immaturity by claiming that the .410 is completely worthless--so I won't do that either.



Hope that explains it.

 

[TheKlawMan]

That's a hypothetical.

Hypotheticals are often used to illustrate the shallowness of certain arguments and beliefs. No one said anything about the .410 being completely useless; no one but yourself. As for thge .410 in a Judge, I have heard it is good for snakes.

 

[Nnobby45]

Hypotheticals are often used to illustrate the shallowness of certain arguments and beliefs. No one said anything about the .410 being completely useless; no one but yourself. As for thge .410 in a Judge, I have heard it is good for snakes.

What's shallow is asking someone if they'd choose The Judge or a 12ga. The Judge is a pistol, which, like any pistol, would never be the first choice if a 12 ga. is available.

Like any pistol, it's likely to be available when the shotgun isn't.

Before you make statements like " No one said anything about the .410 being completely useless; no one but yourself.., " read post #43. Somebody did say that.



Any reference I made to the effectivness of the .410 pistol is with BUCKSHOT, where the range is limited. Others can argue about the .410 with birdshot.

 

[bamaranger]

here we go again

We kick this around so much, and I am guilty myself of loading a coach gun w/ bird shot a time or two for SD in very tight quarters, like a motel room. Very narrow niche and I have rethought the matter since.

The std OO buck load has been the yardstick for a long time and serves much better as a GP/SD load for shotguns, and both my HD shotguns are so loaded at present as well as the duty gun in the gov. vehicle. I live and work in the boonies.

What might be a better idea in the "niche" of extreme urban dwellings and protecting oneself at room distance is something like BB or T-shot (T-buck) ........and that is just a notion w/ no proof.

A gelatin study with 00, BB, T and #4B, and say #6 shot, at reasonable ranges, to include barriers like common clothing and jackets would be very interesting.

 

[TheKlawMan]

Read that in context. Hogdogs was talking about a Taurus Judge loaded with Bird Shot being not worth squat.

 

[youngunz4life]

personal opinion

3" 15 pellet 00 buck(winchester or federal)

If I am sending someone to the other side, I am going to make sure I do my best to make sure he gets there(again, personal opinion - shooting is a last resort but one I am fully commited to if and when it occurs).

 

[Nnobby45]

Read that in context. Hogdogs was talking about a Taurus Judge loaded with Bird Shot being not worth squat.

Maybe that's where the disagreement comes from.

I didn't place the statement in any context other than what was said.

I believe the reference was a pharmacist whose shot disabled a robber and left him lying completely incapacitated until he came back and unnecessarily shot him again.

IF he was using birdshot, then maybe The Judge so loaded is more potent than we thought--- up real close, anyway.