12 ga. Home Defense Shell?
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
- Start date
I'm not against birdshot like most people. I've placed a 20 gauge next to a 2x4. Punches right through with #8. Step back and hit a steel can with #8 and some of the shot will be rattling around in the can and some will bounce off. Close shot acts like a solid slug but with any distance it spreads apart and penetration suffers as it is dependent on per pellet energy. However, I would suggest a good pheasant load with #4 or at the smallest #6 shot. Some of the personal defense ammo is loaded with #2 bird shot. Lead #2 became scarce when lead was outlawed for geese but there are some coyote loads, turkey loads and self defense loads that have #2 birdshot. Even #4 buck will have a considerable ability to penetrate walls. #4 pheasant loads are simply a good compromise if you are in a situation where penetration of walls is your most important criteria such as in an apartment. It is the largest common bird shot found in 25 round boxes. A buddy ER dock talked about pulling the wad out of a guy. He was DOA full of bird shot to the chest. At bedroom distances, #4 birdshot if placed appropriately will be a fight stopper in my humble opinion based on my limited experience and knowledge. Learn to stage your shells putting in the largest shot first such as #4 buck with #4 Bird shot on top. That way if someone won't go down, you have some large shot on tap.
There is also some BB shot loads out there for coyotes to consider.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-conten.../19/12736977_01_12_gauge_coyote_loads_640.jpg
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...tedindex=10&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11
There is also some BB shot loads out there for coyotes to consider.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-conten.../19/12736977_01_12_gauge_coyote_loads_640.jpg
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...tedindex=10&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11
Terrierman
New member
Here's what Dave McCracken said to begin a thread that is stickied on another site:
The dog gave enough warning for you to get the kids into your bedroom and the shotgun out. Behind you, your spouse is calling 911 on the cell phone and holding a revolver. You're covering the top of the stairs as heavy boots clump towards the top floor.....
What your shotgun is loaded with will be of less importance than skills, training, and tactics, but ammo does count. I field a couple queries each week, so this is of great interest to a large number of people.
Here's my opinions and advice based on fact, not movies or wishful thinking....
First,some stuff to avoid.
Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.
There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.
Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.
Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.
Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.
Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.
There is a case for and against using birdshot. Sometimes it works well. Usually that's at extremely close range where the wad still contains the shot,acting like a giant Glaser Safety Slug.
Sometimes it creates ghastly but shallow wounds. Since STOPPING the threat usually involves disrupting the Central Nervous System grossly, these shallow wounds do not suffice.
Bigger pellets penetrate farther. The common name for big pellets is buckshot, from its use in deer hunting. Common US sizes are 000 ( about .36 caliber), 00 (.33), 1 (.30), and so on.
4 buck(.24) is the smallest. The largest buckshot that fits in a 20 gauge is 2 buck, but 3 is more available. 1 buck is the biggest for 16 gauge.
00 is the choice for most police agencies and lots of us civilians. 8 or 9 00 pellets at a reasonable muzzle velocity has plenty of energy to transfer and a lot of frontal surface to help that happen. Even three to five 00 or 000 pellets can make the miniscule 410 into an effective close range tool.
00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. And that brings up another point.
Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.
Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.
Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.
Of course, the biggest pellet is one bore sized chunk of lead, usually called a "Slug".
These have some use for defense but not inside. If they are designed to penetrate a deer broadside and exit, they can pose a threat of overpenetration inside a building. Few of us are that rural that an errant slug poses no threat to anyone.
Buckshot will also penetrate drywall and similar materials, but less so. It behooves us to become adept wiith our defensive tools until we can place that load where it needs to be in a very short time frame and do so without endangering innocents.
Questions, comments, rants?
The dog gave enough warning for you to get the kids into your bedroom and the shotgun out. Behind you, your spouse is calling 911 on the cell phone and holding a revolver. You're covering the top of the stairs as heavy boots clump towards the top floor.....
What your shotgun is loaded with will be of less importance than skills, training, and tactics, but ammo does count. I field a couple queries each week, so this is of great interest to a large number of people.
Here's my opinions and advice based on fact, not movies or wishful thinking....
First,some stuff to avoid.
Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.
There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.
Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.
Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.
Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.
Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.
There is a case for and against using birdshot. Sometimes it works well. Usually that's at extremely close range where the wad still contains the shot,acting like a giant Glaser Safety Slug.
Sometimes it creates ghastly but shallow wounds. Since STOPPING the threat usually involves disrupting the Central Nervous System grossly, these shallow wounds do not suffice.
Bigger pellets penetrate farther. The common name for big pellets is buckshot, from its use in deer hunting. Common US sizes are 000 ( about .36 caliber), 00 (.33), 1 (.30), and so on.
4 buck(.24) is the smallest. The largest buckshot that fits in a 20 gauge is 2 buck, but 3 is more available. 1 buck is the biggest for 16 gauge.
00 is the choice for most police agencies and lots of us civilians. 8 or 9 00 pellets at a reasonable muzzle velocity has plenty of energy to transfer and a lot of frontal surface to help that happen. Even three to five 00 or 000 pellets can make the miniscule 410 into an effective close range tool.
00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. And that brings up another point.
Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.
Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.
Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.
Of course, the biggest pellet is one bore sized chunk of lead, usually called a "Slug".
These have some use for defense but not inside. If they are designed to penetrate a deer broadside and exit, they can pose a threat of overpenetration inside a building. Few of us are that rural that an errant slug poses no threat to anyone.
Buckshot will also penetrate drywall and similar materials, but less so. It behooves us to become adept wiith our defensive tools until we can place that load where it needs to be in a very short time frame and do so without endangering innocents.
Questions, comments, rants?
wild cat mccane
New member
#1 is the best buckshot if you take stock in this:
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_FAQ/
I bought a shload of federal #1 FC. They discontinued it. I think it was a mistake that others didn't buy it. Clearly is "more" of what you want in surface area while giving up nothing in penetration.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_FAQ/
I bought a shload of federal #1 FC. They discontinued it. I think it was a mistake that others didn't buy it. Clearly is "more" of what you want in surface area while giving up nothing in penetration.
Where a shotgun comes into play is outdoors at intermediate ranges between 10-40 yards. This is where the pattern with 9 or more large pellets increases the odds of getting a hit on a moving target. Birdshot may or may not be effective at 10 yards. Certainly not any farther and I don't trust it. If it were all I had, I'd choose the largest shot size I could get my hands on. I have mixed feelings about the smaller buckshot like #4. I suppose it would work, but since IMO a shotgun is an outdoor tool I'd just go straight to 00. And anything other than 00 buck is next to impossible to find.
There is no place inside my home for a shot over 5 yards and in most places 1-3 yards. At close ranges any long gun is cumbersome and risks the possibility of an intruder getting their hands on it. At those ranges I'll choose a handgun to have one free hand. Most common handgun rounds will still penetrate building material, but with HP rounds it does reduce the risk compared to buckshot.
If I were to choose a long gun for indoors work a compact 16" AR is far more compact than most shotguns. And since there is no pattern from a shotgun at 1-5 yards you gain no advantage using a shotgun over a rifle at those ranges. And a softpoint 223 round is the one least likely to penetrate building material. I'd still choose a handgun at indoor ranges, but there is no reason to choose a shotgun over an AR carbine at those ranges.
A handgun, shotgun loaded with 00 buck, and an AR carbine are all part of my HD plan. Each has its place. The handguns indoors, the shotgun if needed for anything in the yard. The AR for longer ranges but could be pressed into service at close or intermediate ranges.
There is no place inside my home for a shot over 5 yards and in most places 1-3 yards. At close ranges any long gun is cumbersome and risks the possibility of an intruder getting their hands on it. At those ranges I'll choose a handgun to have one free hand. Most common handgun rounds will still penetrate building material, but with HP rounds it does reduce the risk compared to buckshot.
If I were to choose a long gun for indoors work a compact 16" AR is far more compact than most shotguns. And since there is no pattern from a shotgun at 1-5 yards you gain no advantage using a shotgun over a rifle at those ranges. And a softpoint 223 round is the one least likely to penetrate building material. I'd still choose a handgun at indoor ranges, but there is no reason to choose a shotgun over an AR carbine at those ranges.
A handgun, shotgun loaded with 00 buck, and an AR carbine are all part of my HD plan. Each has its place. The handguns indoors, the shotgun if needed for anything in the yard. The AR for longer ranges but could be pressed into service at close or intermediate ranges.
Many years ago, a more senior LEO told green young me that you wanted the first three rounds up to be 00 buck, and those following to be slugs. The logic was:
1. If you've shot them three times with buck and it's not 'getting through' to them, you need more penetration
2. If you're moving away (or they are) while still engaging, you need the range of the slug to continue hitting
My HD shottie has 8 rounds of 00 in it with five slugs on a card on the receiver, and lots more buckshot (25 rounds) in my 'holy crap!' chest rig, along with 6 AR mags. I may die, but I hope to die in a pile of my own brass, as the saying goes. Besides, I'm in a REALLY rural area, so I have to plan on holding the fort for 20 minutes or more until the cavalry arrives.
Larry
1. If you've shot them three times with buck and it's not 'getting through' to them, you need more penetration
2. If you're moving away (or they are) while still engaging, you need the range of the slug to continue hitting
My HD shottie has 8 rounds of 00 in it with five slugs on a card on the receiver, and lots more buckshot (25 rounds) in my 'holy crap!' chest rig, along with 6 AR mags. I may die, but I hope to die in a pile of my own brass, as the saying goes. Besides, I'm in a REALLY rural area, so I have to plan on holding the fort for 20 minutes or more until the cavalry arrives.
Larry
stinkeypete
New member
The longest straight line distance in my house is under 10 yards. (7 yards, diagonal across the basement, through the laundry room door.)
In my experience hunting animals, there are distinct ways to get game:
Penetration to vital organs or central nervous system. “Slow” things like a knife, arrow, subsonic bullets (for the most part, e.g. pistol bullets, muzzle loading balls).
Blood loss and shock from a grievous injury. Perhaps deep penetration from above, or nicking an artery.
Shock and blood pressure spike. Shooting a deer with a high powered rifle can be very different than shooting with a pistol. The supersonic bullet (supersonic in air… but hypersonic in animal flesh) can bring an animal instantly down instantly, much faster than bleeding out.
A shotgun strike may only hit an animal with an inch of penetration, but it does this over a very large area. It’s the shock that brings down bunnies, squirrels, geese and grouse. Massive meat-grinder pulverization to body parts will stop critters.
10 yards: no matter what you use, it’s going to make a fist sized hole in stuff. No matter what choke you have, no matter your barrel length.
From 3 yards, a straight shot at a drywall wall…. It’s going through. If I had to pick though, it’s less invasive than bullets. At an angle, well, you get the idea.
If outside, when you want range of 40 yards, this is when buckshot comes into play. Up to 100 yards… slugs. Slugs are going to lob farther with serious intent, but accuracy is impractical.
I have 1 5/8 oz no.5 birdshot going 1450 fps. You could use that.
I have 1 1/4 oz no. 5 and no. 6 going 1220 fps that I prefer because it patterns better at 50 yards for pheasants. That would work.
Anyone that insists you need some kind of special home defense ammo indoors at less than 10 yards.. heck, put on a ballistic vest and have Bubba shoot you with a skeet load of 1 1/4 oz of no. 8 at 1220 fps. No! don’t! A perfect hit on a ballistic vest will be survivable.
That load will also destroy an arm, leg, or face. So even if you’re attacked by deadly ninjas in body armor, pellet size won’t penetrate but whatever hits flesh will cause massive damage, shock, and let’s just say “deter a bad guy.”
No one is going to make money selling “special” hunting ammo. (Wait, they do, some is baloney and some (tungsten) I will take a crate of for free, please! (I am cheap, lead still works fine for me.)
What the cops and military use is one thing. Their intent is not in your house at 6 yards. I’m not out on patrol, you and me are just asleep in the house and ninjas showed up with katanas and throwing stars in the night.
It just doesn’t matter what you shoot. An ounce of pellets at 1200 fps is a giant hole. Shoot some old washing machine at the dump and see for yourself.
Cripes, Dick Cheney nearly killed a guy with 28ga. Dove load at 30 yards.
In my experience hunting animals, there are distinct ways to get game:
Penetration to vital organs or central nervous system. “Slow” things like a knife, arrow, subsonic bullets (for the most part, e.g. pistol bullets, muzzle loading balls).
Blood loss and shock from a grievous injury. Perhaps deep penetration from above, or nicking an artery.
Shock and blood pressure spike. Shooting a deer with a high powered rifle can be very different than shooting with a pistol. The supersonic bullet (supersonic in air… but hypersonic in animal flesh) can bring an animal instantly down instantly, much faster than bleeding out.
A shotgun strike may only hit an animal with an inch of penetration, but it does this over a very large area. It’s the shock that brings down bunnies, squirrels, geese and grouse. Massive meat-grinder pulverization to body parts will stop critters.
10 yards: no matter what you use, it’s going to make a fist sized hole in stuff. No matter what choke you have, no matter your barrel length.
From 3 yards, a straight shot at a drywall wall…. It’s going through. If I had to pick though, it’s less invasive than bullets. At an angle, well, you get the idea.
If outside, when you want range of 40 yards, this is when buckshot comes into play. Up to 100 yards… slugs. Slugs are going to lob farther with serious intent, but accuracy is impractical.
I have 1 5/8 oz no.5 birdshot going 1450 fps. You could use that.
I have 1 1/4 oz no. 5 and no. 6 going 1220 fps that I prefer because it patterns better at 50 yards for pheasants. That would work.
Anyone that insists you need some kind of special home defense ammo indoors at less than 10 yards.. heck, put on a ballistic vest and have Bubba shoot you with a skeet load of 1 1/4 oz of no. 8 at 1220 fps. No! don’t! A perfect hit on a ballistic vest will be survivable.
That load will also destroy an arm, leg, or face. So even if you’re attacked by deadly ninjas in body armor, pellet size won’t penetrate but whatever hits flesh will cause massive damage, shock, and let’s just say “deter a bad guy.”
No one is going to make money selling “special” hunting ammo. (Wait, they do, some is baloney and some (tungsten) I will take a crate of for free, please! (I am cheap, lead still works fine for me.)
What the cops and military use is one thing. Their intent is not in your house at 6 yards. I’m not out on patrol, you and me are just asleep in the house and ninjas showed up with katanas and throwing stars in the night.
It just doesn’t matter what you shoot. An ounce of pellets at 1200 fps is a giant hole. Shoot some old washing machine at the dump and see for yourself.
Cripes, Dick Cheney nearly killed a guy with 28ga. Dove load at 30 yards.
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Wow stinkypete! The hyperbole is strong in your post.
Instead of shooting washing machines, maybe spend some time in a coroner's office or actually researching wound theory and actual wounding of humans shot with birdshot. You have grossly stretched facts to meet your opinion.
Instead of shooting washing machines, maybe spend some time in a coroner's office or actually researching wound theory and actual wounding of humans shot with birdshot. You have grossly stretched facts to meet your opinion.
stinkeypete
New member
Mark, I shot a lot of alive animals and personally observed what happened.
I’ve shot thousands of rounds of shotgun, mostly at little targets moving fast. I worked at a hospital for years.
My opinion is that all this “home defense ammunition” stuff is nonsense to sell overpriced ammo to fellas that will shoot less than 25 rounds for the entire life of the shotgun.
There is simply not enough data on how many people are shot at close range with birdshot.
Hunting accidents with birdshot indicate hospitalization even at 30 yards.
My hobby is shooting shotguns and pistols, butchering the results on animals, and then cooking delicious meals with the meat.
If you enjoy the hobby of arguing about which ammo is better at less than 10 yards, fine.
I will stand by my challenge to take your shotgun out and actually shoot some stuff at 10 yards.
I’ve shot thousands of rounds of shotgun, mostly at little targets moving fast. I worked at a hospital for years.
My opinion is that all this “home defense ammunition” stuff is nonsense to sell overpriced ammo to fellas that will shoot less than 25 rounds for the entire life of the shotgun.
There is simply not enough data on how many people are shot at close range with birdshot.
Hunting accidents with birdshot indicate hospitalization even at 30 yards.
My hobby is shooting shotguns and pistols, butchering the results on animals, and then cooking delicious meals with the meat.
If you enjoy the hobby of arguing about which ammo is better at less than 10 yards, fine.
I will stand by my challenge to take your shotgun out and actually shoot some stuff at 10 yards.
Bill DeShivs
New member
I have told this story before.
I personally know both people in this story.
A man was shot in the right chest with a load of #8 shot from a Remington 1100. This was in a small apartment bedroom. The man that was shot ran 35 yards before dropping from blood loss. In the ER (which was VERY close by,) they pulled the plastic wad off of his spine. He lost part of his lung, but recovered fully.
Would heavier shot have killed him? Maybe.
Was the wound grievous? Certainly.
He was high on alcohol and cocaine.
I personally know both people in this story.
A man was shot in the right chest with a load of #8 shot from a Remington 1100. This was in a small apartment bedroom. The man that was shot ran 35 yards before dropping from blood loss. In the ER (which was VERY close by,) they pulled the plastic wad off of his spine. He lost part of his lung, but recovered fully.
Would heavier shot have killed him? Maybe.
Was the wound grievous? Certainly.
He was high on alcohol and cocaine.
stinkeypete...I actually shoot a lot of stuff too. My boys and I have shot well over 1000 birds some seasons. I am probably one of very few to actually shoot a bull Elk with a shotgun. 
Some of my work is for LEAs and some for manufacturer's in testing. But I don't based my opinions on those solely. I have had the opportunity to work on a lot of shootings, intentional and accidental, as an expert. Bird and buck shootings, both intentional and accidental inclusive.
The data is out there, I have some of it. I think you would be amazed at how many survive birdshot hits from 10 to 20 yards (vast majority) and at how few are incapacitated by such.
Your choice of course. But knowledge is a benefit that some would prefer.
Some of my work is for LEAs and some for manufacturer's in testing. But I don't based my opinions on those solely. I have had the opportunity to work on a lot of shootings, intentional and accidental, as an expert. Bird and buck shootings, both intentional and accidental inclusive.The data is out there, I have some of it. I think you would be amazed at how many survive birdshot hits from 10 to 20 yards (vast majority) and at how few are incapacitated by such.
Your choice of course. But knowledge is a benefit that some would prefer.
stinkeypete
New member
Mark, respect. Elk hunting with a shotgun means hunting more, waiting more, calling better, stalking more and less bloodshot meat. But, you use a slug, right?
The OP was talking about in the house, so probably around 8 yards. He was concerned about overpenetration. In this particular case, I put out the idea that an ounce and a quarter of #5 birdshot (as I hunt pheasants, it’s what I have boxes of) is within measurement error of anything. An ounce and a quarter of any lead shot. Or take it up a notch and I wager tungsten is better than lead. Sorry, that’s a red herring.
Bill’s story confirms it’s a massive wound and reminds us that the goal is to deter an attacker, not necessarily kill them. Shot placement is crucial.
The world record grizzly bear was taken with one shot from a .22 Long Rifle. I’ve had deer run away for a mile when I hit with a .454 Casull. I still feel bad about that shot.
Indoors. 8 yards.
I think we can all agree that the rubber buckshot I saw at the gun store yesterday is a shockingly bad idea. Shockingly bad idea. Lethal enough to kill sometimes, and if it’s not “me or them”… don’t shoot!
Outdoors, at 40 yards… we are in complete agreement.
The OP was talking about in the house, so probably around 8 yards. He was concerned about overpenetration. In this particular case, I put out the idea that an ounce and a quarter of #5 birdshot (as I hunt pheasants, it’s what I have boxes of) is within measurement error of anything. An ounce and a quarter of any lead shot. Or take it up a notch and I wager tungsten is better than lead. Sorry, that’s a red herring.
Bill’s story confirms it’s a massive wound and reminds us that the goal is to deter an attacker, not necessarily kill them. Shot placement is crucial.
The world record grizzly bear was taken with one shot from a .22 Long Rifle. I’ve had deer run away for a mile when I hit with a .454 Casull. I still feel bad about that shot.
Indoors. 8 yards.
I think we can all agree that the rubber buckshot I saw at the gun store yesterday is a shockingly bad idea. Shockingly bad idea. Lethal enough to kill sometimes, and if it’s not “me or them”… don’t shoot!
Outdoors, at 40 yards… we are in complete agreement.
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I agree StinkyPete; I to have fired hundreds of thousands of shotgun rounds; just yesterday did some patterning at 20yards - the indentations my #8 running 1275 did to the steel plate would indicate some serious enough penetration; and if the perp is wearing a vest, the destruction of a knee incapacitates him and if you need another shot, he will in serious kimchee. Not saying some form of buck isn't a decent round to have, but a load of birdshot; especially large shot, will do the job at typical inside the home distances.