10mm guns could be chambered in 9x23 win?

[Sevens]

You might want to start a new thread with 356 TSW in the title 'cause it might get lost here.

That's an option, but this thread will (hopefully!) attract all the great contributors who already posted here. And it certainly seems that .356 TSW is wholly relevant to the conversation.

The .356TSW can't really support a conversation by itself... on The Firing Line Forums... in the year 2019.

 

[rock185]

It seems the .356 TSW was created as a rule beater cartridge back in the day. IIRC, IPSC or whoever decided trying to make major with 9X19MM was dangerous because it exceeded SAAMI pressure limits, so it was disallowed in sanctioned competition. The .356 TSW with it's longer case was a different cartridge without a SAAMI pressure limits and was therefore allowed. An interesting work around to comply with the rules. The Winchester 9X23 cases could be shortened, but they get so much thicker internally toward the base, I think there might be issues with seating some bullets without bulging the case. Shortened Starline 9X23 Comp brass might be worthy of consideration.

I did some work with Col. Cooper's Super 9 cartridge back in the '80s, but since then, my "nutty ballsy" 9MMs have been more pedestrian,i.e., 38 Super, Super Comp, 38TJ and 9X23 Winchester.

 

[Ruger45LC]

There are a lot of cool options out there, but to me at least, it seems the 357 SIG is just hard to beat for that caliber. You get a 9mm sized gun, nearly 9mm capacity and it can scream if you handload for it.

A little while back I did some experimenting with using actual .357" bullets in the 357 SIG and from a 4.5" KKM 357 SIG barrel in a Glock .40 and Starline brass, I was able to run a 125gr XTP to 1620 fps avg, a 140gr XTP to 1460 fps avg and a 158gr XTP to 1390 fps. A 6" barrel added anywhere from 60-100 fps on top of this, less for the hefty 158gr, more for the 125gr.

 

[SATRP]

Hi Radny97,

Why didn't the 9x23 Win catch on when it was introduced? What would be its intended purpose?

What the heck happened to the .45 Win Mag?

My prediction is the 10MM is on life support. It's exclusively a niche cartridge. Jeff Cooper returned home to his beloved 1911-A1 .45 ACP after birthing commercial production of the 10MM.

Marketing is not much more than dandified propaganda. Short magnums were all the rage a decade ago. Most shorties are dead and buried. Mega magnums are heading in the same direction. Hunters who've regained their senses come to figure out that the century plus year old '06 still kills big game as dead as any mega magnum. There's only one degree of dead and that's dead. The '06 wins the head-to-head race.

 

[tipoc]

Wiley Clapp tells us some about the .356 TSW. It was developed for competition by S&W. The TSW meant Team Smith & Wesson. It was a proprietary cartridge chambered in guns made by S&W.

The idea was a common one at the time and went to an issue, or aimed at resolving an issue, in both IPSC and USPSA. That issue related to power factors and the difference between major and minor categories in competitive shooting.

Up until 1996 or so to make Major you had to have a power Factor of 175. PF was set by taking the bullet weight times the velocity and dividing that by 1,000. A PF of 175 or above was major and below that was minor. This favored heavier bullets.

Now there were other things going on the competitive shooting at the time that developed into issues and that shooters have tried to resolve but I can't get into that in a post. So...

Folks figured out that if you took the 38 Super cartridge and loaded it up you could make major. This was true especially in guns with compensators. You could do this with a heavier or lighter bullet, either way. As 38 Super is essentially a 9mm cartridge you had increased mag capacity over the 45 acp and less recoil with a lighter bullet especially with a compensator. So 38 Super came to dominate competitive run and gun shooting from the 1980s till the early part of this century. It also led to a good number of competitors overloading the Super and blowing up guns.

Several things happened as a result. One was that the 9x23 Winchester developed (which was the same oal as the 38 Super) and the .356 TSW (which was a bit longer than the 9mm but could fit in guns made for the 9mm parabellum. The 38 Super Comp was also developed, a rimless 38 Super. These were 9mm cartridges in diameter. They got about 1400 fps with a 125 gr. bullet and were excellent cartridges.

But shortly after the appearance of these on the market the rules in IPSC changed. PF was lowered to 165. This meant that the standard 9mm could make major. This basically killed the market for these. Other changes were made as well.

So here...

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/4/29/356-tsw/

http://www.ammo-one.com/356TWS.html

From Forgotten Weapons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2jU5cp4WCg

tipoc

 

[HiBC]

A minor detail regarding the breech face:

The rim dia of 9 mm s .394 The rim dia of the semi rimmed 38 Super is .406

The 10 mm is .424.

I don't know how Colt cut the breech faces.IMO,I'd check a 38 Super slide to see f the breech freely accepts 10 mm.My Colt 38 Super slide does.


My brother had a 9mm bbl fitted to interchange on his 38 Super race gun. Cheap brass. Losing Starline is a bummer..I suggested he have a dedicated extractor fitted. It runs fine.

.
When thinking ejectors,think radius. A 38 Super is .203,a 10 mm is .212.Thats a .009 difference in radius. I'd think the slide would be cut for the same ejector.. But,I have not done a 10mm.