Your Opinions, Please

[Single Six]

I recall hearing the bit about .357-toting LEOs using .38 ammo for practice, and loading up with full-house .357s for duty carry. The story goes that this practice really bit them in their collective butts; their on-the-street accuracy with their sidearms suffered. This was allegedly due to their being accustomed to the comparatively weaker .38s, and therefore not being able to handle the more stout .357 ammo. I guess we've all heard this story, and it does seem logical, though I'm not 100% sure of it's veracity. In any case, my question: I carry a .45 with 230 grain JHPs. If all I practice with is a 9mm with 115 grain ball [only because of the price difference between .45 ball vs. 9mm], should I expect similar grim results....or am I over-thinking this, and it only matters that I'm shooting regularly? Thanks for any and all replies.

 

[kraigwy]

I think that theory is a Myth.

I was a Firearms Instructor in LE while we were still using revolvers. We qualified with 357s and practiced with 38s. Our qualifications consisted of firing 48 rounds in a relatively short period of time and I didn't notice the problems you mentioned.

You develop "muscle memory" by practice. Under stress, muscle memory kicks in. If you were practicing good fundamentals with 38s, if the few rounds a cops shoots in a "shoot out" there isn't time to program muscle memory by shooting 357s.

There isn't that much difference in recoil that its going to throw you off at the distances cops shoot.

Its kind of like saying "dry firing" does no good because you don't get the recoil from firing actual rounds.

 

[KyJim]

If I'm shooting .38s in a magnum, I'll usually put a cylinder full of magnums through it just to keep familiar with the feel. I've never noticed using .38s effecting my aim.

 

[lee n. field]

should I expect similar grim results....or am I over-thinking this, and it only matters that I'm shooting regularly?

That latter, I would thing. The difference between shooting 9 vs. 45 isn't that great.

 

[Noreaster]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Real life means total surprise, moving target, no target stance, and your life is in danger. You cannot equate this type of shooting to target shooting. In fact if you take a couple of guys to the range an off set the target by three feet to the left or right it will effect their accuracy. Now try real life when all you wanted to do was approach some guy (simple shoplifter) and ask him for his name and dob and he lunges at you with a knife or starts blasting away at you with a handgun and you claw at your duty holster, strip the gun out and pull the trigger as fast as you can because your about to die. Try shooting at a target with no bullseye and there is a face and a weapon on it (your naturally prone to look at the face or the gun/knife/tire iron, not center mass,) and you have to shoot as your shuffling backward and scared to death.

Read Mike Conti's books (Saber Press) about real life shootings and weapon handling.

 

[bigghoss]

I'll agree that it's more important HOW you shoot than WHAT you shoot. There are a lot of very good skills that can be practiced without actually firing live ammo that could save your life. Back in the day they rarely "trained" but generally only practiced. Stand here, feet like this, aim like this, slowly work the trigger, don't dump your brass on the floor! Use the bucket!

If you work on skills with reduced loads you'll be better off than they guy who stands in one place and only shoots full-power ammo.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

As a former department firearms training officer in the 70s and 80s, we used 38 Special loads for training in the fundamentals of marksmanship. Recoil and report of the 38 can be handled by most officers. At the time, almost every officer carried a revolver in 38 Special or 357 Magnum, unlike today.

Department policy mandated that for an officer to move up to a more powerful calibre from the 38 Special, he had to qualify with it before he was authorized to cary or use it.

I also ran field type scenarios at both day and night where they used up their duty ammo from the previous quarter before I issued their street loads for the next quarter. The muzzle flash, recoil and report of duty loads was then well know to our personnel.

So the answer to the original question is yes. Not only my department but all departments in my area did so. Another factor in this was that I could purchase several cases of re-manufactured 38 Special for the cost of just one case of duty ammo. That stretched my budget by quite a bit and gave the officers much more practice than they otherwise would have got.

With the big transition to autoloaders in the late 80s, the practice was pretty much dropped because semiauto pistols operate reliably only at designed power levels (recoil impulse or Newtons second law) and that pretty well killed off the concept of practice with light loads.

I will add that in a gunfight (military or police) with the adrenal glands pumping, report and recoil are not noticed and you shoot the way you practiced and trained.

As Kraigwy posted above, muscle memory is an important take away from training. Because of that, we also taught instictive shooting (without sights) so that night time encounters were more successfully concluded. Muscle memory is key to this type of marksmanship when you can't see the sights.

 

[BigJimP]

I think that theory is a myth as well ....

There is such a thing as "quality practice" ....where you really work at goals and objectives ...and whether you shoot .38's in a .357 mag / or 9mm in a 1911 platform identical to a platform you carry in .45 acp ...."quality practice" based on what I've seen - makes shooters a lot more accurate, quicker and more confident.

I'm over 60yrs old ...and handgun shooting to me, is a perishable skill, and the more often I practice the better I get ....and the more I can maintain my skills at a relatively high level ....and shooting a few boxes of .38 spl ...will tell me if my rounds are on target or if I'm pushing rounds one way or another / same thing by shooting a 5" 1911 in 9mm and carrying a 5" 1911 in .45acp ...--- its still feedback on sight picture, trigger pull and reset execution ...and in and out of a holster ... all good quality practice / meeting goals and objectives ...and it pays off when you shoot the same weapon in .357 mag or .45 acp.

Today as an example...I went to the range for about 3 hrs...had a Buckmark with 200 rds of .22 ...worked just on trigger control and being smooth. Then I moved to a 5" 1911 in 9mm 2 boxes / then shot a box thru a 5" 1911 in .45 acp ( with the same drills / double taps, tactical reloads.....

then went to a S&W model 18 revolver (K frame) 4" in .22 / then to a K frame S&W mod 19 in .357 mag 4" ( shot some .38's / then some .357 mag)...and finished up with an N frame mod 27 4" and shot only .357 mag thru it.

.....I finished up with a box thru my 1911's in 9mm and a box thru my 1911 in .45 acp ...same tactical drills at 30 ft./ then some slow fire - 6 round groups at 21 Ft ( to get a group I can cover with a .50 cent piece ideally) ...

But you should try it yourself / keep notes on your range sessions / see if it helps you or not. Use a timer / test yourself periodically ...

 

[arch308]

I've never been in a shootout, thank goodness. I'm thinking it would be similar to the hunting shooting in that when the adrenelin is flowing you don't feel the recoil or hear much of the boom. I don't really think about trigger control or breathing right, muscle memory takes over from practice.
Just a theory from a civilian.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

should I expect similar grim results....or am I over-thinking this

You are over thinking it. Practice with 9mm all you want. Just don't forget to shoot the occasional .45acp every now and again.

 

[B.N.Real]

Better to go to the range and actually fire the gun with cheap rounds then wait extra long lengths of time to fire rounds you can barely afford to buy.

Fire as much as you can.

Let the targets sort of the rest.

 

[bedbugbilly]

Noreaster - thanks for putting it bluntly . . I don't know any other way to say it. You have to look at life the way it really is . . . . although it is good to go through "scenarios" . . no one, and I mean NO ONE knows how they will react in a life or death situation . . . even the seasoned veteran. I was shot at many years ago while taking a call at night (I worked ambulance) and on several occasions, arrived at scenes where firearms were involved (i.e. shots had been fired with individuals down and no one knowing what was taking place or going on) and I've also been in situations with individuals high on dope who were doing their best to "take me out". When a situation like that arises, the adrenline kicks in and all you can hope for is that your training kicks in as well.

I CCW a .357 but I rarely have 357s in it - usually 38 spls. I practice with 38spls and 357 both though. Most SD situations are going to be "close up" and will basically happen so fast that you'll barely have time to react. At the range, I see very little difference in either of those cartridges at the range (distance) I am practicing at. You make a very good point. We all practice at SD targets (most of us anyway) "straight on". Real life does not always mimic that. A person should practice shooting at different angles as well. Personally, I'm not so concerned about how my weapon functions at say 25 or 50 yards, utilizing both 357 and 38 spls. and the differences of where those ammos hit at that range. I'm more concerned that regardless of which ammo I have in my weapon, that I can hit central mass at 5 to 10 feet for self defense purposes. At those ranges, with all the factors figured in of surprise, fear, adrenlin, reaction time, etc., I don't really see worry of practicing with the cheaper 38 spl and carrying 357.

 

[Noreaster]

Muscle memory and practice are very important and training will prevail in a life or death scenario. It's hard to look at OIS and say hey they didn't use magnum loads for target shooting and this is why they failed. The real failure is qualification shooting vs training. Many agencies qualify but don't train. I was a die hard paper puncher until real life jumped up and slapped me across the face. Now I see the light and realize there is more to gun fighting then standing square to a piece of paper and lining up the sights and pressing the trigger with proper breathing, stance.... I believe Mike Conti's books and training really address the issue.

 

[TennJed]

Isn't true that most cops never have to use their firearm on duty? Would not think it would be enough actual evidence to back up any such claims

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

Tenjed,

I believe that your are correct. The last figures I had access to indicated that private civilians actually were involved in their defense much more often than LE. I've seen the figure of 10% of officers actually firing their weapon at a bad guy during their careers. On the other hand, officers are prepared to use their weapons during any felony car stop, alarm or man with a weapon call. I guess all officers use their firearms routinely and hope not to have to fire them.

I also remember that the average police shooting in the 70s and 80s looked like this:

4 to 7 feet
Hours of darkness
Four shots fired

Back then the average hit rate for LE was only about 20% according to FBI statistics.

I don't know what it is now. Anyone have access to the current data? I'd be interested to know if the large capacity semiauto pistols have changed the figures at all.

 

[Single Six]

TennJed: I didn't mention this, but I work full-time LE. Most folks in my profession carry their guns a whole lot more than they shoot them, be it at the range or "for real". That's the main reason police trade-in guns are such a bargain; they're most often hardly broken in yet. This, I think, is to our detriment. Nationwide, it appears that most LE guys have a pretty abysmal record when it comes to marksmanship in real-world situations. Ergo, I try to not let myself fall into that same category. When my agency has us qualify [only once a year, not nearly as often as it should be], I usually score in the high 90s, and quite often I score 100%. However, this does absolutely nothing but verify that my basic shooting skills are okay...because B-27 silhouette targets never shoot back. Now, I know of no officer [me included] that wants to actually be involved in a shooting, but we all know that it could happen. Hence, I'm doing what I can to develop and maintain the necessary skills that I genuinely pray to God I'll never actually need.

 

[jglsprings]

kraigwy
You develop "muscle memory" by practice. Under stress, muscle memory kicks in. If you were practicing good fundamentals with 38s, if the few rounds a cops shoots in a "shoot out" there isn't time to program muscle memory by shooting 357s.

This ^

Listen to KraigWy

P.S. Is there any snow in Wyoming this year?

 

[Viper225]

I carryed a revolver way longer than anyone else in my area. I did not change over to the XDm because I felt under gunned with my revolver, just the qualification course had changed to the point I was having a hard time getting in my reloads where the semi auto's were not making them.

I would normally shoot my 4" Model 617 22LR revolver a great deal before qualification for economical practice and trigger time. It always paid off.

I have an LCR 22 to go with my LCR 357. I shoot both the LCR 22 and LCR 357 in our Clubs Defensive Pistol Match in BUG Division. I reload both with Quick Strips. The LCR 22 is a great practice gun.

As was said over and over trigger time, and quality practice time are what counts. Shoot some full power ammo now and again, but do most of your practicing with lighter recoiling ammo. I find trigger time with a 22 works out great for me.

Bob

 

[Single Six]

Well, having read all of these replies thus far, I guess I'll practice regularly with that 9mm and not worry about it. Thanks all!

 

[chris in va]

the practice was pretty much dropped because semiauto pistols operate reliably only at designed power levels (recoil impulse or Newtons second law) and that pretty well killed off the concept of practice with light loads.

What?

My semiautos run fine on light 'mouse fart' reloads or full blown +p's. The case just gets thrown in different places.

But anyway, I have to disagree with the posters saying that you can practice with lighter recoiling ammo. I notice a big difference in shot placement during matches when I switch between 9mm and 45.

Shoot a 22 for a while, then switch to a 40S&W. Get back with the results.

Practice with what you carry. That's my motto.