You 1911 "Pros"; Question For You

[CDH]

For those who are intimately familiar with the Colt line of 1911's, I'm hankerin' (that's Texas talk) for a new 1911 Commander size pistol.
I'm leaning heavily toward Colt (but maybe Springfield Champion; don't know for sure yet) so I have a quick question I hope you Colt pros can answer in under 5000 words.

The two Colts I'm considering are the 4012XSE or the O4091U. They are both Commander size (4-1/4" bbl) and in stainless, but I'd like to know the fine points of difference between the two and why I might want to choose one configuration over another.

4012XSE at: http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/XSE.asp
O4091U at: http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1991.asp

I do want the full size frame albeit with the Commander slide/bbl, and the two grip frames on the two look the same to me but I note that the XSE accepts one more in the magazine whatever that means.

This might be an occasional carry pistol so dependability is paramount.

TIA,
Carter

 

[Rimrod]

I'm not a pro but,

The 1991 model was introduced as a less expensive alternative. Mainly the tolerences are mil-spec, meaning they are not as close as the XSE models would be. The XSE should be more accurate out of the box. The reason the military models were so loose was for dependability which would be a concern if you planned on jumping into foxholes or trenches.

The XSE also has some features the 1991 model doesn't have that many people would add later. The extended ambidextrous safety, the beavertail grip safety, adjustable trigger, novak type sights and front serrations. But the thing to keep in mind is what do you want on the gun and what do you have to add? Being left handed I like an ambidextrous safety although I don't care for the extended safeties. I don't use the beavertail grip safety or the adjustable trigger. As for the front serrations and Novak type sights I can take them or leave them. There will be others that will say you have to have all these things and more but it is a personal choice on what you like and what fits you.

If you want to just by the gun and use it as is get the XSE. If you want to get a gun and ship it off for major tweaking or you do not care for target grade accuracy get the 1991, although there may be cheaper ways to go for that.

 

[Sarge]

I have had a half-dozen 1991A1's through my hands in the last 15 years. All of them ran fine, and they would flat shoot. Both the one hyperlinked above, and my old Commander, produced rested, 50-yard groups under four inches. That's enough accuracy to stay well inside the black on a NRA 50-yard bull, if you can hold it.

The Commander ran for over 3500 rounds without a single malfunction- ball, SWC's & JHP's. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

 

[EIGHTYDUECE]

both pistols use the same magazines.

The 1991 comes with 7 rounders for tradition sake and price. You can buy 8 rounders for the 1991, and the XSE uses the 7 rounders as found on the 1991. It is just how they chose to package them is all.

 

[XavierBreath]

The real difference? Appearance.

I'm going to disagree with Rimrod. I have found the NRM Colts to be fitted every bit as nicely as the XSE. The XSE has the ugly unfitted duckbill grip safety as wellas a relief cut under the trigger guard. It has low profile sights`and some holes in it's trigger. It has an extended ambi-safety, a Commander hammer, and forward slide serrations.

 

[CDH]

OK, from what I get so far is that both of the pistols are basically "1991" pistols (as opposed to the Series 70 pistol) which makes the basic planform and internal parts identical. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Then the differences between the two are that the XSE has some "custom" parts that many people might add to a standard 1911 to customize it... some.
Ambidextrous safety, interesting trigger.. but nothing except the bobbed hammer that I really do care about.

I note that some of the non-XSE models have the standard "hook" hammer, but they do put the combat bobbed hammer on the O4091U model I'm considering which I like better... less to snag on clothing.
I would like the Rosewood grips but the O4091U has rubber grips which would be better for a (potential) carry gun.

So thanks guys, if it ends up being a Colt, I do believe the O4091U is the Commander I'm looking for.

Carter

 

[IZinterrogator]

I would like the Rosewood grips but the O4091U has rubber grips which would be better for a (potential) carry gun.

I don't know. I prefer the rosewood grips on my Colt Gunsite CCO because they are nicely checkered, which I prefer to rubber. YMMV.

 

[XavierBreath]

CDH,
You are correct. Both the 1991 and XSE are Series 80 pistols, meaning they both have the Colt firing pin safety.

The stainless 1991 has rubber grips, the blue pistols have cocobolo wood. Get the finish you want. The grips are a $20 parts swap.

Many concealed gun carriers prefer wood grips. They hide the gun better because the cover garment slides over them easily.

If the pistol is carried C&L, the type of hammer it has is a non-issue.

 

[CDH]

Yea, about that Series 80 firing pin safety...

I understand the issue and that some feel that the trigger pull is significantly different to be distracting.
But I wonder if that's just "older is better" kind of talk.

For those of you who have shot both Series 70 AND Series 80 Colts extensively; what's the real skinny on that? Is it as bad as some say?... and on the other hand, others have said no big deal and it's not even noticed.

????

Carter

 

[XavierBreath]

I own both Series 70 and Series 80 Colts.
I also do my own trigger jobs.

I think the "Series 80 can't get a decent trigger" story was put out by gunsmiths who simply installed lighter mainsprings and called it a trigger job. If you do a proper trigger job by polishing parts, or if you just stick with the stock mainspring and do nothing, there is no difference that I can feel. Maybe my finger is just not super sensitive, but a properly tuned Series 80 trigger and FPS is every bit as good as a tuned Series 70 trigger to me. The FPS does make for four extra parts in a detail strip.

 

[auto45]

I have and shoot both types.

The series 80 can be "as good" for most people. Bullseye shooters and very light trigger "pullers" will notice the difference.

 

[CDH]

I own both Series 70 and Series 80 Colts.
I also do my own trigger jobs.

What's involved in polishing up the trigger parts?

I'm a mechanical kind of guy with lot's of natural aptitude, so is this something I could do myself (just cleaning up a little with perhaps some 1000grit wetordry?) or should it be turned over to a gunsmith?

Carter

 

[Hunter Customs]

I just finished up two custom Colts and both were series 80 guns. Both guns have very clean crisp triggers one is 3.5 pounds the other was set at 3.25 pounds. I've done a lot of trigger jobs on series 80 guns, and they can be just as light and clean as 70 series guns. Like XavierBreath I'm not sure where the BS comes from about trigger jobs on series 80 Colts, but that's what it is, BS.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

 

[XavierBreath]

Here is a good page on trigger jobs. A proper trigger job involves more than just dropping in a McCormick trigger and a 18 pound mainspring. A proper trigger job involves polishing the primary and secondary angles of the sear, equalizing and lowering the hammer hooks, and a good polishing on all engagement surfaces. Finally you adjust the travel in the trigger to your desires. On the Series 80 pistol, you have the FPS (3 parts) to polish as well as the usual stuff.

 

[CDH]

Interesting stuff there.

It appears that both of the models I noted above are in short supply (non-existent) locally but I did find a 4860XSE brand new which is the same as the 4012XSE except that the 4860XSE has an aluminum (lightweight) frame which might be better anyway since I intend to carry it once in a while.
Every one of the people I checked with tried real hard to switch me over to one of the other brands but I think I'll stay with Colt for this one.

I'm only a little concerned that the aluminum frame won't be as durable in the long run as the stainless frame, but I don't think I've ever come across anyone who had any problem that way so I'll assume it's a moot point.

Thanks guys.

Carter

 

[john45colt]

Remove 2 parts from the slide, 2 parts from the frame and you have a series 70. John

 

[Hunter Customs]

CDH,
Any of the Colt's should be a very good choice. The aluminum frame guns can take a beating from hollow point ammo or if they have a lot of rounds shot through them. Their intended use is to be carried a lot and shot a little.
If you want a gun silver in appearence you can buy a blue Commander and have it hardchromed.
One thing I like to do on the Colt's to make them more shooter friendly is up-sweep the stock grip safety like the one on the little Colt in the picture. This makes a very big difference in keeping the grip safety from digging into ones hand especially when shooting with a high grip.
Again any of the Colt's should serve you well.

XavierBreath,
Don't forget to prep the trigger stirup and the disconnector. When it comes to cutting hammer hooks I never take mine shorter then .020; you can set triggers as light as 1.5 pounds with .020 hooks even with all the series 80 parts in the gun.

Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

 

[XavierBreath]

XavierBreath,
Don't forget to prep the trigger stirup and the disconnector. When it comes to cutting hammer hooks I never take mine shorter then .020; you can set triggers as light as 1.5 pounds with .020 hooks even with all the series 80 parts in the gun.

Yep. I use a fine whetstone with a .020 feeler gauge laid across it to cut my hammer hooks. .020 is my limit. The same stone is used to polish the trigger stirrup, and disconnect. I like the Nowlin sear spring for the more narrow leaves which eliminate possibility of rubbing against each other. I use the stone to radius the sear spring surfaces where they engage the sear and disconnect, and I adjust the spring tension as well. I like the Dlask or McCormick trigger for the ability to adjust pretravel as well as overtravel.

Those magazine bottoms are the cat's meow Bob!

 

[CDH]

While I do want to smooth up the trigger on my new LW Commander XSE and will take the advice given, I've also done some reading after-the-fact about the possibilities of aluminum frame Commanders not holding up quite as well as the steel frames.

To be fair, people with steel frames have reported cracking as well, and it is rare that any frame cracking is found on even aluminum framed Commanders at least up to 10,000 rounds, and many with 10's of thousands more on them still hold up well.
I would also imagine that the rare cracked frame is more likely due to running a lot of +P through it than it is just because it's an aluminum frame as evidenced by the fact that steel framed 45's have cracked as well.

With that all said, I really wanted the all stainless Commander rather than the LW Commander but am taking it because it's all I could find brand new in stock locally. And since it's the aluminum frame LW Commander, I'm thinking of installing one of these before I even fire it the first time.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/a_shokbuff_sys.asp

This looks like a good way to give an aluminum Commander some protection from occasional +P abuse, and Wilson claims this kit will enhance both accuracy as well as dependability.
Does this sound like a good idea for you pros? Are Wilson's claims of making the aluminum Commander more durable and long lasting as well as adding accuracy and dependability reasonable?

Carter

 

[XavierBreath]

The most common problem with aluminum frames seem to be feed ramp gouging from steel magazine followers. If you use a Wilson mag, the source of that problem is eliminated.

Cracks can occur. Some are significant, others are not. All are enough to tick you off. They should not happen. I do not have a LW Commander, but I have eyeballed S&W's scandium framed gun. If I bought a LW Commander, I would not feed it a steady diet of +P ammo, although I would not worry about carrying +P. The same goes for a steel framed gun.

The shock buffs are decried by many. I run buffs in my range 1911s. I use them mainly for how they make the gun feel in use. I do not use them in my carry gun. I swap buffs when they start to look ragged. I do not use the Wilson Buff, I prefer the Brown buff or a nylon CP buff.