WW2 Captured Colt Model 1894

[bigbird34]

Hello gentlemen, Happy New Year ! My good friend of 30+ years received this Colt from his distant aunt about 20 years ago....It's a Military Colt that was taken from Japanese pilot that was shot down,his Uncle got to keep the captured gun ....It is a Colt D/A Army revolver Model 1894 ,( I believe it was manufactured in 1897),and shoots a BP load that would be called a 38 Long Colt .NOT a 38 Special. I finally got permission from my friend to put the gun on the internet to get an idea of what it is worth ,the s/n is 10528J, what does the "J" stand for ???? It's in rough shape,as it is over 100 years old,and we have not written Colt for a letter , but may do so in the future !
any input would be appreciated .
There is a RAC stamped on the pistol ???? Here are some pic's.

TY Big Bird

 

[Jim Watson]

RAC is Rinaldo A. Carr, the chief inspector of Colts going to the Army at the time.

I do not see a J. I can't guess a dollar value. Nice family heirloom.

 

[4V50 Gary]

The US markings on the butt suggests it was in military service and possibly during the Philippines Insurrection. It may even have been carried by the Filipino Constabulary. Either way, it was probably captured and carried as a prize of war by the Japanese aviator.

 

[Dfariswheel]

I also don't see a "J".
Serial number 105280 was made in 1898.
1898 started at 91200.
1899 started at 115000.

The other numbers on the parts are assembly numbers used to keep fitted parts together during manufacture.
Often these assembly numbers have no relationship to the actual serial number, which is on the butt.
All the assembly numbers should match or parts have been replaced.

This is a US Army issue as indicated by the butt stamp.

A Colt Archive letter will likely be of little use.
All it will tell you is the date it was shipped from Colt and will almost certainly have been shipped to a US arsenal or warehouse location.
These were not shipped direct to user locations, so there's no way to ever know where it went after it arrived at the government shipping address.

A good guess is that it was eventually sent to the Philippines, either shipped there or issued to a unit or soldier who took it there.
A lot of these did wind up in the Philippines and it would be logical for a Japanese soldier to had picked it up there.
Apparently many of these obsolete New Army model revolvers were given to the Philippine military after they were obsolete and removed from US service.

As the gun itself, it has little value due to the poor shape and obsolete caliber.Value is usually determined by the amount of original finish remaining, being in as issued configuration, and in working condition.
As such, due to the lack of finish this would be worth around $175 at best.

However as a family heirloom it would be priceless.
I suggestion would be for the owner to write up a short letter detailing the family history and how his uncle came to have it.
Have the letter notarized and kept with the gun and capture letter.
The provenance will make it even more valuable to the family in the years to come.
Where value is lost on these family heirlooms is when due to a lack of documentation the family looses the history and it becomes just an old gun.

 

[RickB]

I looked over a Colt 1901 .38 for a friend-of-a-friend, and the cylinder is bored through, so .38 Special rounds will chamber.
Definitely not a good idea to keep that gun and .38 Spl ammo in close proximity.

 

[Mk VII]

It is common to find various letters on the components signifying inspection at various stages by the maker. These have no particular significance.

Much of the surviving inventory was given a lanyard ring at a later stage - evidently this one did not.

These revolvers have a reputation for rather fragile lockwork, and it can be difficult to find anybody who is prepared to work on them when they go wrong.

The bore is somewhat oversized by modern standards - if you drop a .358 bullet into the bore it will probably fall right through - and if one was into shooting them then a hollow-based bullet would be necessary, unless you were into casting/swaging something around .361 or .362.

The standard work is Robert Best, A Study of Colt's New Army and Navy Pattern Double Action Revolvers / 1889 to 1908; this is out of print and you will find it difficult to get.

 

[bigbird34]

S/N correction

You guys are correct,there is no "J", it's a worn out zero ! Old eyes I guess,that's my story and I'm sticking to it !

TY, Bigbird34

 

[4V50 Gary]

Good eye MarkVII. I didn't even notice that the sideplate was on the right side. I worked on an earlier Colt action that preceded that action used in the later Police Positives, Official Police, Python and it was much more complicated.

 

[44 AMP]

Neat gun with its history. I can't put a dollar value on the history (capture papers) but I would say that makes it more valuable than an unpapered gun in the same condition.

The .38 Long Colt's poor performance during the Moro uprisings is the oft given reason for the Army wanting a .45 caliber round for the upcoming auto pistol, which became the .45ACP.

It is a bit ironic, that the gun the Army wanted replaced because it performed poorly in the Philippines was then given to the Philippines for police use.

Also interesting is the Japanese use. Overall, Japanese pistols were not great (some are downright scary), and it was very common for Japanese officers, who bought their handgun, to buy a US made gun when/if they could.

One friend of mine, who was a Marine in the Pacific, really wanted a "Jap pistol" for a trophy. The first three he "captured" were two Colts and a S&W, in nice handcrafted Japanese holsters. He did finally get his Nambu, a couple of them if I recall. Up until he passed, he told the stories, in particular how surprised he was EACH time he got a "Jap pistol", that was made in the USA!

Some guns really traveled, there was a Dutch Contract Luger mentioned here a while back, made in Germany (LUGER), for the Dutch, part of the last batch delivered before WWII started, sent by the Dutch to their garrison in the East Indies, then captured by the Japanese (1942), and then liberated by a GI in the Philippines (44) and brought back to the states after the war.

 

[bigbird34]

The Holster

44 AMP, I never thought of sending pictures of the holster,but here they are ,looks Japanese made to me It would appear that USA made revolvers were highly cherished ! This Holster is in real good shape for it's age !
Thanks guys, Bigbird34

 

[kilimanjaro]

Don't separate that holster from the gun, together they add up to some real value. Do make a Xerox of the capture papers and put the Xerox in the holster, today, while you're getting the original document notarized. Keep the original somewhere safe.

Do keep your photos and scans safe, buy a little thumb drive and put them it all on there. While you're at it, add a copy of a photo of the US GI who captured it, if you can get one, along with any other wartime photos that may turn up, might as well gather the whole story, so to speak.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"It is a bit ironic, that the gun the Army wanted replaced because it performed poorly in the Philippines was then given to the Philippines for police use."

The Philippino Constabulary also got quite a few of the ONLY weapon that was truly effective at stopping a hopped up Moro tribesman in his tracks -- Winchester Model 1893/97 shotguns.

Most people don't know that the .45 Colt revolver, which was rushed back into service, wasn't all that good of a stopper against a Moro, either. It was better than the .38, but it still wasn't a sure thing that you weren't going to lose your head to a panga or get poked with a spear.

 

[RickB]

Don't forget the Colt "Alaskan Model" of 1902; a giant DA .45 that had an extra-long trigger, not so you could shoot it with gloves on, which begat the Alaskan nickname, but so small-statured Filipinos could get two fingers on it and overcome the heavy trigger.

 

[James K]

Actually, both the Alaskan and Filipino stories are myths. The Army did buy some Colt revolvers, the model collectors call the Model 1878 or Double Action Army*. Because of misfires, the Army asked for a stronger mainspring, but then found that almost no average (American) soldier could fire the gun DA. So they asked Colt to put on lengthened triggers for better leverage. Intended use with gloves or by small-handed folks had nothing to do with it.

The change didn't help much. Anyone who believes otherwise need only try firing either the regular DAA or the military variation (which the Army called the Model 1902) in double action. Even with the long trigger, the DA trigger pull is atrocious, and few people can fire the gun with either trigger with any degree of accuracy.

Add the grip "knuckle" that becomes painful after even a few shots, and one can only conclude that the gun was not one of Colt's better ideas.

*Model 1902 was the Army designation for the variation they adopted; Model 1878 is the common collector name. Colt called the .45 version the Double Action Army; in .44-40 chambering, it was called the Double Action Frontier.

Jim

 

[RickB]

Did the U.S. military use any '02s?
My understanding is they all went to the Philippines, and the long trigger story is backed-up by a period letter, asking that the contract for the Philippines Constabulary include the longer trigger.
I'll snoop around and see if I can find it.

EDIT: There are so many stories, it's hard to sort them out. It's mostly a chicken-and-the-egg deal, with some sources saying the trigger was longer to help overcome the heavy mainspring, and the trigger is long enough that you can get two fingers on it, which could certainly be confused for "make it long enough so that you can get two fingers on it"; same result.
I swear I've seen a letter, originating in the Philippines circa 1900, asking that the trigger be lengthened, presumably compared to the 1878, but I may have inferred the "two fingers" part.
Anyway, the trigger is very long, the pull is very heavy, and if you have small hands you can get two fingers on the trigger.
I still don't buy any of the Alaska or gloved-hand stuff as explanations for the long trigger and enlarged guard.
The '02s were sent to the Philippines for use by the Philippine Constabulary, and stories about use of gloves, which you wear where it's cold, so the guns must have been used in Alaska, was all speculation.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I suspect that the "Alaska trigger guard" might have originated around the same time as the Japanese Manchurian modification Type 14s started coming into the United States...

Those were modified for use in cold weather.

 

[Armybrat]

When my dad returned from France in 1945, he brought back a Browning BAR made pre-war by FN in Belgium. It was 7.9mm caliber, IIRC. Apparently the Browning was captured by the Germans when they overran Belgium, then used it until dad's unit took it away from them.

Back home, my grandpa soldered a small brass plug in the breech so the FBI could issue a DEWAT paper to make it a legal curio. During the 1950s in St. Louis, I would drag it around the neighborhood playing "Army" with my friends. Nobody gave us a second look, much less call the cops.

We donated it to the Camp Mabry Military Museum in Austin, Texas years ago, and it has sat undisplayed in their vault ever since.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Also interesting is the Japanese use. Overall, Japanese pistols were not great (some are downright scary), and it was very common for Japanese officers, who bought their handgun, to buy a US made gun when/if they could.

Smith and Wesson had contracts to supply their 'Russian Model' revolver to the Japanese government toward the end of the 19th Century. There were S&W advertisements published at the time showing Japanese naval officers examining these pistols. I have been trying to find an online source of the ad, but have had no luck so far.

What I do have is a coupe of photos.

In both of these photos, the revolver at the top is a Japanese contract S&W Russian model.

This is the Japanese acceptance mark stamped on the underside of the frame.

Some of these revolvers were still in use in WWII.

 

[Ocraknife]

I had an old Colt Police Positive made a couple of years later - 1908 or something like that. It shot .38 s&w is that that same as the .38 LC?

 

[RJay]

If that is the original holster , right off hand I would say it has never been used. No creasers, sweats stains, oil stains ( taken from Japanese pilot ? ), Oh well, old war stories are just that, old war stories. I know for a fact my involvement In the Viet Nam conflict becomes larger and larger every year.