Would you interupt an apparent kidnapping?

[jfrey123]

(TYPO: Option 2 should read "Gun ready")

Hey folks,

This is a response to two threads, one going in this forum about interrupting a robbery in progress, and one in the general discussion regarding a woman with children being forced at knife point into her vehicle.

I voted in the robbery posting, and my stance is to be ready but not interfere until the BG showed a true hostile intent by actually shooting, preparing someone for execution, etc. I just overall feel that it's not my place to end life if the BG's true intent was money only and not life, and I know quite a few shared my opinion which caused quite the disruption in the other post.

I don't intend to turn this forum into a million "what if" scenarios, but I am curious about the CCW'ers on this forum regarding a direct threat to life.

Take the scenario from usconcealedcarry.com: Upon exiting a restaurant, you see in the parking lot a woman with children being harassed at gun point by two assailants. She is obviously panicked, and you surmise this is some sort of abduction attempt. What do you do?

Note: I changed it from a knife in the original story to a gun, because I believe that may cause those out to protect numero uno to think a little bit harder before answering.

 

[jfrey123]

To play my own game, I voted for option 3. I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't make an attempt to save her. Especially if I hear on the news later she was found victimized and/or murdered. People important to me know my feelings regarding 'the indifference of good men'.

 

[benny27]

If I was packing of course, if I wasn't I would get in my car and follow the vehicle if I was close enough to mine. If I couldn't follow him/her I would get on the cell phone and call the police.

 

[Playboypenguin]

I was wondering if anyone would make this distinction and ask the question in this manner.

A kidnapping or assault situation is completely different than a robbery scenerio.

Robbery is a property crime, as long as they get the money and belongings they are after, statistically speaking, they seldom do physical harm to the victim.

Kidnapping is completely different as far as motivation goes and the odds swing the other way.

I would definitely do everything I could to try and stop the persons involved from leaving the scene (in as safe a manner as possible). Even if it turned out to be a misunderstanding I would still request they stay until police arrived. Just to be sure because a victim will sometime be coerced into saying it is okay even when it is not.

 

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

I'm with Playboypenguin here, a robbery is a slightly different animal from a kidnapping.

First thing would be to dial 911 before reaching for a gun. If there's a cop a block away I'll let them worry about approaching armed people with innocents at gun point. Either way I want the police to know what's happening and who I am and what I look like before anything else happens if I have ten seconds to spare.

If I can either approach or stay in a doorway and see how many BG's there are I'd have to vote for taking out the BG's in order of who poses the most threat to the innocents...see who you can hit, see where the guns are pointing. If I am behind cover I figure to have at least three to five seconds (arbitrary numbers) to act before the BG's react, find me, and start dumping.

3-5 seconds may not sound like a long time but anyone who's shot competition knows you can let a lot of lead fly in a fairly well aimed direction, assuming you've been training and working on your skills. I have to think high center of mass or headshots would be the shot of choice here...distance, position, and the "backdrop" would influence that choice.

I think what's more important than your action is that you assess the situation, your skills, and make a decision that will place the innocents in the least amount of harm. Is being held at gunpoint dangerous? Yes. Is kidnapping in the best interest of the innocents? No. Is being held at gunpoint while someone is shooting at the guy holding the gun even more dangerous? I would think so.

Know your abilities, understand the situation, and act accordingly. Oh yeah, also know what you are willing to risk your life and your freedom for before you leave the house armed.

 

[RJay]

Unless a small child was involved, I would back off and and get the information for the police. How do you know it's a kidnapping and not a lovers spat?? I'm not a LEO nor am I empowered to uphold the law nor do I have the legal right to detain someone at gun point in an unknown situation such as this. Now if a small child was involved, all bets are off.

 

[Playboypenguin]

RJay

A very large percentage of abductions that end in fatalities are of grown women...and often by ex-lovers.

 

[Perldog007]

I would not try to interrupt unless it was my wife/kid. Pretty well trained for a SO, but that is beyond my level of training. I would have to be forced into being involved.

My first course of action would be to try and make myself a good witness. Get all the relevant information and pass it on to LEO. If I am the one being kidnapped going to fight like a retarded skunk on meth. No two ways about it.

If a LEO was being grabbed I might be more inclined to try to help as this is pretty clear cut.

Once I collected a bail skip for the money. I can see how somebody may have thought that was a kidnap if they walked up on it. I drove into west philly with the courtesy van from a rent a wreck place called just 4 wheels. Wearing civvies kicked in the guy's door and hauled him out in cuffs covered with a blanket and put him in the van, secured him and drove off.

Glad nobody thought it was a kidnapping and tried to intervene. I was unarmed at the time.

From that experience I would have to be very comfortable with knowing what I was seeing to do anything but observe and report.

 

[SIGSHR]

I recall reading one of Chuck Taylor's columns where he said "You see a woman struggling with a man in a parking lot. How do you know: 1-It's not a
lover's quarrel? 2. She's not a whore who tried to rip him off?"
Were I to play the Cavalry to the Rescue I might try a shot or two at the
BG's vehicle, don't think they'll go too far with flat tires, a punctured gas tank, a punctured radiator, broken headlights, etc.

 

[Lurper]

Last time I checked, robbery was a crime against persons. Burglary is a crime against property. Robbery is using force or the threat of force or implied force to obtain something from another. That something can be property like money, wallet, car or not; like ATM pin for example.
Robbery is a serious crime.

The real question you should be asking is:
How do I know this is a _______________ (insert your favorite crime here) in progress? Usually, you can't. Unless you've seen the scenarion unfold or the guys with weapons start injuring people, you are best to sit back and call 911. Or, wait until the scenario becomes obvious if it ever does. You have nothing to lose by watching, following, calling 911 or any other witness action. You have a lot to lose if you get involved and find out you were wrong.

One of the true stories we use in our instruction:
A man was walking through a park after dark. He saw a woman being tied to a tree by a man who was obviously going to sexually assault her (her pants were off). He heard her saying "no, no, stop!". Carrying his legal firearm, he intervened and held the man (woman too) at gunpoint until the police arrived. Turns out the man and woman were playing out a sexual fantasy. They were so incensed, they demanded that the would be good samaritan be arrested. He was.
You need to know the entire situation before you act unless it is blatantly obvious that someone is about to die.

 

[bclark1]

i mis-clicked
next version of vBB needs to allow vote changes.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I feel like there is a need to clarify something here.

Theft - can be a property crime. I.E. someone breaks into your car and steals stuff while you are away. You come back to find the evidence of the crime but you were never in any direct danger nor were you threatened.

This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animal from direct assault type crimes.

Robbery (by force) - The old "give me your money or else" (the rest of the sentence is I'll hurt or kill you). This is a DIRECT THREAT to your person and must always be treated as such.

Kidnapping - The same, it is a direct threat and must be dealt with. Back when I worked LE we used to refer to "going with the criminal" as the "Doom Ride" because once they took you to the site of their choice they would be free to do with you as they pleased.

Now of course all due observation and deduction MUST come into play to be as sure as possible that the situation is what it appears to be, but I would have a very tough time standing by while witnessing a kidnapping.

 

[tony pasley]

I would do what I could to stop it. I have 2 daughters, and would protect other women as if they were my daughter and pray some one else would be willing to protect my daughter. I am not rich or poor but things don't ammount to a daughters life. As has been said in these pages things can be replaced but life cannot.

 

[Playboypenguin]

You guys are talking about what is involved or damaged in the crime.

Psychologically speaking crimes are based on money or power (sexual or physical). In a robbery people are involved but the motive is property.

When a badguy has a clear goal of obtaining items of monetary value it is alot different than a crime against a person where the goal is revenge, to injure someone, or sexual based. The later is much more dangerous.

 

[akr]

There isn't anything much more dangerous than walking in on a burglary in progress. The burglars can switch from wanting property to wanting your life pretty quickly.

 

[M14fan]

Kidnapping requires immediate intervention. I will defuse this situation as quickly as possible. If small children are involved they will remain with me till police are on scene. I will be dialing 911 even as I arm myself to intervene. Hopefully this will not result in exchange of fire.

 

[TexasSeaRay]

A man was walking through a park after dark. He saw a woman being tied to a tree by a man who was obviously going to sexually assault her (her pants were off). He heard her saying "no, no, stop!". Carrying his legal firearm, he intervened and held the man (woman too) at gunpoint until the police arrived. Turns out the man and woman were playing out a sexual fantasy. They were so incensed, they demanded that the would be good samaritan be arrested. He was.

I would've had the arresting cop's ass for breakfast and picked my teeth with what was left of his badge afterwards.

All such "let's see if we can trick unsuspecting civilian CCL students with one in a million scenarios" do is reinforce the concept that nobody matters in this country or world but you.

And the more that attitude/fear prevails among decent society, the greater in numbers and greater in strength the wolves among us grow.

The good samaritan had every reasonable, prudent and responsible reason to believe that not only was a felony in progress, but that an innocent women stood a better than even chance of ending up severely beaten at best, dead at the worst. Her little fetish having her pants down around her ankles only gave greater probable cause for the good citizen to act as he did.

Any cop who saw and heard that story and STILL arrested the good samaritan doesn't have the common sense nor judgement nor MENTAL ABILITY to stand behind a badge.

Period.

Jeff

 

[benny27]

I love these "what if" situations.., The chances of some of these things happening have got to be worse than winning the lottery. Just use common sense folks, you'll know what to do if and when the situation arises. It's all about helping out your fellow neighbor in a time of distress, if that calls for lethal force so be it, if it calls for a call to the police then so be that, every situation is unique.

 

[Dwight55]

Far more years back than I would care to enumerate, . . . I was taught that the best training is force on force or man on man training that is as fully realistic as is possible in the place/time/equipment constraints.

The instructor then used for second best: mental practice, scenario drills if you will. Not a substitute for the above, but a real means to eliminate the decision making from the scenario, . . . relying on muscle memory, . . . going first to training then later to explanation of what happened/when/where, etc.

In that case, . . . I long ago made the decision that no one, especially children will be taken from my presence if I have any half baked ability to stop it. The bg or myself are going to take lead, . . . no doubt, . . . no question, . . . no quarter, . . . end of story.

In the scenario where it is one woman, one man, and he has a Glock looking weapon, . . . I would hesitate just long enough to try and ascertain if indeed this is a bond bail grab or a plain clothes cop doing a noisy arrest. If the perp has a big butcher knife or one of them shiny nickel plated sissy pistols, . . . I will probably close the distance to where I feel comfortable on taking the shot and then just doing it: no warning, no verbal command, if he doesn't hear the safety going off on my 1911, . . . tough banannas.

Cold? . . . Nahhhh, . . . 99% safe, . . . and even better odds for her to survive the encounter. At 63, I've had a good life, . . . and figure that a little sympathy on the juriors' part might get me off if the 1% came through.

Anyway, may God bless,
Dwight

 

[Lurper]

You guys are talking about what is involved or damaged in the crime.

No, I'm talking about legal classification. Burglary in and of itself is usually a misdemeanor (unless at night or an occupied structure), a crime against property-hence does not justify lethal force. I robbery is a crime against a person, so lethal force is justifed.

I would've had the arresting cop's ass for breakfast and picked my teeth with what was left of his badge afterwards.

Umm, no you wouldn't and neither did he. He clearly violated the law. The couple tried to explain it to him before the police arrived, but he would have none of it. They insisted on pressing charges and did. IIRC he ended up either pleading to or being convicted of Criminal Trespass (a misdemeanor).

The good samaritan had every reasonable, prudent and responsible reason to believe that not only was a felony in progress, but that an innocent women stood a better than even chance of ending up severely beaten at best, dead at the worst. Her little fetish having her pants down around her ankles only gave greater probable cause for the good citizen to act as he did.

No he didn't. He saw no one getting beaten, he saw no one in danger of death or serious bodily injury. A CCW or gun is not a hero waiting to happen badge! That is exactly the type of attitude that will get you in jail when you think you are doing the right thing. It comes from making a decision based on emotion and not fact. That is the whole point: IF YOU DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE FACTS, YOU SHOULD NOT GET INVOLVED! Unless and until someone is clearly in danger of death or serious bodily injury and you have no other way to stop the assault. You can preach from your pulpit of moral righteousness all you want and it don't mean a thing because we are not talking about morality, we are talking about legality. You can take your moral justification and let it keep you warm for the twenty five to life you get incarcerated for when you involve yourself in someone else's situation that you have no clear understanding of.

Not getting involved doesn't mean turn your back and walk away. It means call 911, be a good witness and if you see someone in danger of death or serious bodily injury (like someone getting stabbed), then take action. How do you know that the woman is not being arrested? You draw down on two cops, then what? Part of being a good witness may involve moving closer so you can hear the dialog. Or, following their vehicle until the police arrive or any number of things.

Just use common sense folks, you'll know what to do if and when the situation arises. It's all about helping out your fellow neighbor in a time of distress, if that calls for lethal force so be it, if it calls for a call to the police then so be that, every situation is unique.

Amen to that!