Recently there was a discussion about private citizens paying money to fight Iraqi’s on their own. The thread was closed but it started me thinking about something. Assuming that private citizens were still allowed to own the necessary arms, and that you did own what you deemed necessary, would you accept a congressional letter of Marque, or Reprisal? Would this classify you as a mercenary, albeit one for your own country? And do you think that doing this would differ morally from being in the military fighting your countries enemy? Whats your view on Letters of Marque and Reprisal?
Would you accept a letter of Marque or Reprisal?
- Thread starter ahenry
- Start date
real soldiers have a huge machine backing them up.
logistics, orders, backup, equipment and intel - and its still dangerous as hell.
so me and my buddies get our ARs out, go down to Tacticals R US and get outfitted.
we hitch over to that wasteland and what?
shoot everyone with a turban?
how we supposed to know the Northern Alliance from Al Quaeda?
I doubt the Northern Alliance is a bunch of boyscouts - they se some Americans with some fancy gear, but they are not US Mil so who will miss them?
There are so many things that make this a bad idea.
Now - if the mission was to a western county like Canada or England or something - or even South America, then I would say it is somewhat less implausible...
logistics, orders, backup, equipment and intel - and its still dangerous as hell.
so me and my buddies get our ARs out, go down to Tacticals R US and get outfitted.
we hitch over to that wasteland and what?
shoot everyone with a turban?
how we supposed to know the Northern Alliance from Al Quaeda?
I doubt the Northern Alliance is a bunch of boyscouts - they se some Americans with some fancy gear, but they are not US Mil so who will miss them?
There are so many things that make this a bad idea.
Now - if the mission was to a western county like Canada or England or something - or even South America, then I would say it is somewhat less implausible...
Libertarian
New member
Would I accept a Letter of Marque? Not personally. Would I support other who were capable? Yes. Certainly. The anti mercenary laws are unconstitutional INHO.
The question, to which I answered "yes" to is:
Just because I may have the resources, knowledge, and desire to whack Saddam or another "enemy" of the US doesn't make it moral. If Saddam needs whacking, do it the old fashioned way by war, spies, assassination, etc., instead of hiring mercs. Oh, we don't WANT to do it the old fashioned way? Then leave him to the natural course of events. I wouldn't feel nearly as good about the U.S. as I do if it had to resort to hired killers.
Letters of M&R were useful when the U.S. didn't have the capability of seeing after its own affairs. Thankfully, that time is past.
A serviceman has no financial reward from dispatching his country's enemies. A mercenary does. A merc is nothing more than a hired killer acting under the banner of a supposedly legitimate government. That's a violation of our credo that a person is entitled to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and is nothing different than a hired killer for the Mob.
Just because I may have the resources, knowledge, and desire to whack Saddam or another "enemy" of the US doesn't make it moral. If Saddam needs whacking, do it the old fashioned way by war, spies, assassination, etc., instead of hiring mercs. Oh, we don't WANT to do it the old fashioned way? Then leave him to the natural course of events. I wouldn't feel nearly as good about the U.S. as I do if it had to resort to hired killers.
Letters of M&R were useful when the U.S. didn't have the capability of seeing after its own affairs. Thankfully, that time is past.
Gee, Mr Saddam. Although we issued a few thousand Letters of Marque or Reprisal, we have no idea who have been targetting your cabinet members and supporters using expanding bullets that are not allowed in the Geneva Convention rules of war.
Oh, by the way, we also don't know who was able to detonate a few dirty nuclear devices in and around Baghdad, but our scientists do know that they are not ours. Maybe Pakistan's or Russia's. Here are the names and addresses of someone in Pakistan or Russia that might be able to help you find out.
Oh, by the way, we also don't know who was able to detonate a few dirty nuclear devices in and around Baghdad, but our scientists do know that they are not ours. Maybe Pakistan's or Russia's. Here are the names and addresses of someone in Pakistan or Russia that might be able to help you find out.
Stephen Ewing
New member
Blackhawk, a question?
Do we draw a line somewhere on this, like the Lafayette Escadrille, Eagle Squadrons or Flying Tigers? Farther away, like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? Or is it an absolute?
Not a flame, as I do tend to believe that if you put on a foreign uniform , you better have a new citizenship to go with it, regardless of how we feel about the folks who issue that uniform. I'm still trying to place that line myself.
Having said that, I believe we should emphasize the Letters of Marque authority as much as we can for use with antis: "So you're saying Congress has the power to send UNARMED civilians out to wage war?!?"
And, ahenry:
No.
No. Fighting for your own is ok, whether you're salaried or commission.
Yes.
Still morally and legally viable for an American with the letter, but since it's a virtual death sentence most of the time, Congress can't often profit from issuing them anymore.
Does the $25million bounty count?
Steve
Do we draw a line somewhere on this, like the Lafayette Escadrille, Eagle Squadrons or Flying Tigers? Farther away, like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? Or is it an absolute?
Not a flame, as I do tend to believe that if you put on a foreign uniform , you better have a new citizenship to go with it, regardless of how we feel about the folks who issue that uniform. I'm still trying to place that line myself.
Having said that, I believe we should emphasize the Letters of Marque authority as much as we can for use with antis: "So you're saying Congress has the power to send UNARMED civilians out to wage war?!?"
And, ahenry:
No.
No. Fighting for your own is ok, whether you're salaried or commission.
Yes.
Still morally and legally viable for an American with the letter, but since it's a virtual death sentence most of the time, Congress can't often profit from issuing them anymore.
Does the $25million bounty count?
Steve
The Lafayette Escadrille & Lincoln Brigades were units of American volunteering their services to a foriegn government, no American involvement in organization or funding. Flying Tigers were just a mercenary unit (although secretly condoned by US). Same as French & Spanish Foriegn Legions-simple mercenaries. England & Isreal also offer security units for sale to third-world countries.
Americans did volunteer for combat thru Canada in WWI & WWII before US' declaration. There also some that went back to Germany, Italy & Japan to fight on the Axis side.
None of the above were US-sanctioned military units. -If captured, the US has no duty to look after their rights & well-being. Captured under these circumstances, most are categorized as bandits or mercenaries & executed.
Americans did volunteer for combat thru Canada in WWI & WWII before US' declaration. There also some that went back to Germany, Italy & Japan to fight on the Axis side.
None of the above were US-sanctioned military units. -If captured, the US has no duty to look after their rights & well-being. Captured under these circumstances, most are categorized as bandits or mercenaries & executed.
Stephen, you're opening up a book on that one -- one to be written! We lost a total of about 290,000 KIA American servicemen in WWII. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to send us a message "Stay out of it," provoked in large part by the Flying Tigers -- not what they did but that they were there. If instead, the Flying Tigers had worn the U.S. uniform and the Japanese been told from the get go that "We're not staying out of it, so get your butts back to Japan," would that have altered the course of the events of the late '30s and early '40s?
The U.S. had the wherewithal to dissuade the Japanese from their expansion then, just as it had what was needed to make WWI Germany a bit more cautious.
The American people were supposedly the problem. They bought into the "isolationism" malarkey of appeasement and we suffered for it. The most powerful nation that ever existed was afraid to "do the right thing" because of polls, public opinion polls. So it wasn't the people, it was the politicians who were afraid they wouldn't get elected again!
Letters of Marque serve a purpose for when the country cannot make its will known through its own means.
We have a glorious history, but not all of it. Two of the most shameful periods are when we turned away the Jews from Germany and when we didn't welcome the Vietnamese boat people off the coast of Vietnam.
It's dinner time, so I'm out of here!
The U.S. had the wherewithal to dissuade the Japanese from their expansion then, just as it had what was needed to make WWI Germany a bit more cautious.
The American people were supposedly the problem. They bought into the "isolationism" malarkey of appeasement and we suffered for it. The most powerful nation that ever existed was afraid to "do the right thing" because of polls, public opinion polls. So it wasn't the people, it was the politicians who were afraid they wouldn't get elected again!
Letters of Marque serve a purpose for when the country cannot make its will known through its own means.
We have a glorious history, but not all of it. Two of the most shameful periods are when we turned away the Jews from Germany and when we didn't welcome the Vietnamese boat people off the coast of Vietnam.
It's dinner time, so I'm out of here!
I am going to play devil advocate here
I suppose I better tell my friends and relatives that are off fighting a war, that they need to check their bank accounts. I might ought to call my sister and see if she needs any money right now... I am being a bit facetious here, and I apologize for it, but a serviceman most assuredly receives a financial reward for fighting his country’s enemies. He might have more important reasons than pure financial gain, but nevertheless he does receive financial reward for his work. So I ask again, what is the difference between one who joins his country’s military for the sole purpose of fighting a specific enemy, and one who accepts a letter of marque or reprisal for the sole purpose of fighting his countries enemy (albeit on his own and not in a structured military)? Is there a moral difference? What is the difference?
Huh?
I suppose I better tell my friends and relatives that are off fighting a war, that they need to check their bank accounts. I might ought to call my sister and see if she needs any money right now... I am being a bit facetious here, and I apologize for it, but a serviceman most assuredly receives a financial reward for fighting his country’s enemies. He might have more important reasons than pure financial gain, but nevertheless he does receive financial reward for his work. So I ask again, what is the difference between one who joins his country’s military for the sole purpose of fighting a specific enemy, and one who accepts a letter of marque or reprisal for the sole purpose of fighting his countries enemy (albeit on his own and not in a structured military)? Is there a moral difference? What is the difference?Not to mention, most of the Flying Tigers were then put back on active duty once the US "officially" entered the war.
There is a new book out by Aukai Collins called "My Jihad". Just started it, so haven't decided whether or not this guy is normal, a religeous fanatic or a moron.
Your typical American citizen, converts to Islam, decides it is his desire to become a martyr, so he packs up his cami's and heads off to fight and get his ticket straight to heaven. No training, no real organization or planning.
Heads first to Afghanistan, but can't make any headway getting himself killed so comes back to America. Then heads over to Chechnya where he manages go finally kill a few Russian soldiers. One of his early buddies, Ahmed Omar Saeed Skeikh, turns out to be one of of the guys on trial for killing Daniel Pearl. Claims he became disillusioned by all of the "innocents" being killed, so he went to work for the US government as an undercover operative to fight terrorism.
There is a new book out by Aukai Collins called "My Jihad". Just started it, so haven't decided whether or not this guy is normal, a religeous fanatic or a moron.
Your typical American citizen, converts to Islam, decides it is his desire to become a martyr, so he packs up his cami's and heads off to fight and get his ticket straight to heaven. No training, no real organization or planning.
Heads first to Afghanistan, but can't make any headway getting himself killed so comes back to America. Then heads over to Chechnya where he manages go finally kill a few Russian soldiers. One of his early buddies, Ahmed Omar Saeed Skeikh, turns out to be one of of the guys on trial for killing Daniel Pearl. Claims he became disillusioned by all of the "innocents" being killed, so he went to work for the US government as an undercover operative to fight terrorism.
MeekAndMild
New member
I'm a noncombatant.
Flying Tigers were definitely a mercenary unit.
Bought & paid for with Nationalist Chinese silver. It was secretly avowed by the US, but never officially.
Pappy Boyington formerly of the Flying Tigers, who went on to lead the Black Sheep Squadron, had always been pissed because he was never fully paid for his shoot-downs. If you ever read any of the histories with interviews of former FTs, they were motivated by the bounty paid per Japanese airplane shot down.
They also tended to be romantics and disgusted with how the Japanese were treating the Chinese, -but their patriotism didn't develop until after Pearl Harbor.
Bought & paid for with Nationalist Chinese silver. It was secretly avowed by the US, but never officially.
Pappy Boyington formerly of the Flying Tigers, who went on to lead the Black Sheep Squadron, had always been pissed because he was never fully paid for his shoot-downs. If you ever read any of the histories with interviews of former FTs, they were motivated by the bounty paid per Japanese airplane shot down.
They also tended to be romantics and disgusted with how the Japanese were treating the Chinese, -but their patriotism didn't develop until after Pearl Harbor.
Pappy Boyington was never paid for a couple (or was it three?) "kills" because by the AVG standards, they could not be confirmed. Specifically, these "kills" were neither witnessed by fellow aviators nor did any coolie/farmhand find any wreckage (they reported it quickly).
Regarding letters of marque or reprisals, I'd accept them only if I was a swabbie with a fast ship, modern weaponry (surface to surface missiles) and could tie in with U.S. satellites. Why chase about in an empty ocean when you can find that flagged freighter? Think the Coast Guard would lend me a cutter?
Regarding letters of marque or reprisals, I'd accept them only if I was a swabbie with a fast ship, modern weaponry (surface to surface missiles) and could tie in with U.S. satellites. Why chase about in an empty ocean when you can find that flagged freighter? Think the Coast Guard would lend me a cutter?