Would anyone be interested in this other thing?

[Andrew Wyatt]

I was doing some thinking on things the industry needs to produce, and I came up with an idea.

THe industry needs to produce a straight pull or lee style (cock on closing) bolt action carbine with a short barrel, about 16-19 inches long. it should weigh no more than 7pounds in .308, or 6 pounds in .223. it should use detachable magazines if a readily available kind, like FAL or m-14 magazines for the .308 and ar-15, mini-14 or ak magazines for the .223.

The sights should be ghost ring aperature sights like that on the m-14 (adjustable for range out to 800 or so yards), the front sight should be protected by sturdy wings.

There should be a low mounted downbore scope mount(on the .308).

The muzzle should have a flash suppressor of some sort.

The stock should be shorter than usual, about 13 inches.

the price should be 400 dollars, even.

Since it uses readily available magazines, you won'r have to go buy new ones just for this rifle.


I think this would make a dandy general purpose gun, and I'm sure they'd sell like hotcakes.

 

[ronin308]

Sounds like a good idea to me! But it would be impossible to price something like that at $400. A set of M14 style sights are very expensive, probably at LEAST 15-20% of the cost. I would modify the design in the following way:

-Straight pull bolt
-Ghost ring sights like on Wild West Guns w/ a detachable rear sight
-Permanent conventional scope mount w/ detachable rings
-Permanent scout scope mount with detachable rings
-Both scope mounts should be unobtrusive when not in use
-Have a five round fixed magazine
-Stripper clip guide
-Threaded muzzle
-LOP 12.5-13"
-Sale price of $1,200-1,400

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

really, all the gun really needs to have is a good set of sights, a quick bolt action, and it needs to use m-14/FAL or m-16 magazines.

all of those other things are just gravy.

I think it would be nice to have a gun that uses existing magazines, even if you're limited to 10 rounders.

 

[ronin308]

Andrew Wyatt- Yeah you're right. I guess we're kind of talking about two different animals, even though they would serve essentially the same purpose.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

actually, a lee- enfield number 4, suitably modified to take m-14 magazines would be about 80 percent of what i'm looking for.

A new bolt head with a plunger ejector and larger extractor woiuld be called for, along with a new rear sight, regraduated for .308, and modified bottom metal and a new barrel would be required.


the barrel could be mounted with an m-14 type flash suppressor/ front sight, or a conventional front and threads for a muzzle device.

a ching ring scope mount could be incorporated for not much labor, as well.

too bad enfields won't have the savage barrel nut system of attachment.

 

[Correia]

Andrew, a company out of Australia is in fact currently producing Enfields in .223 (M16 magazines) 7.62x39 (AK47 Mags) and .308 (M14). I saw these at SHOT show, very nice.

Tristar Sporting Arms from Kansas City is the US importer. No web address on my SHOT literature. Telephone is (816)421-1400.

 

[Deadman]

Correia beat me to it.

Actually the company making these new production Enfield carbines ( named No.4 Mk.10 ) isn't in Australia, its in the U.S. I think.

There will be at least 4 different models.
-20 inch barrel and full forestock to the end of barrel.
-20 inch barrel with a shortened forestock
-16 inch barrel with full forestock.
-16 inch barrel with shortened forestock.

The 7.62x39 version uses SKS mags.
The .308 version uses M14 mags.
And the 5.56 version apparently uses Mini14 mags not M16 mags for some bizarre reason.

The 7.62x39 will only be available initially. The .308 and 5.56 versions will follow shortly afterwards.

At the moment, whoever is actually making these rifles hasn't quite finished the first batch of production rifles. And every time I ask the future Australian supplier about them, it seems they are always going to be ready ' next month....'

The price should be roughly US$450 (Aus price $895).

 

[Hemicuda]

sounds good to me, EXCEPT for the "cock on close"

I work hard on my early model mausers to convert them to cock-on-open...

cock on close is a P.I.T.A. why would you WANT this feature on a gun?

 

[ronin308]

Hemi-

Some people really like this feature because they believe that it leads to faster operation. Cock on closing is seen as an advantage because the inertia of your forward stroke will naturally cock the action. Whereas on a mauser type action you are basically cocking it from a static position, thereby making it more difficult. IMHO I like the mauser action better, but that's probably because I have much more trigger time on those types than on the Lee-Enfield.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I personally believe that cock on close is a better system for two reasons.

1. with ammunition that causes sticky extraction, I don't have to fight the pressure of the striker spring in attition to the sticky case.

2. I don't even notice the striker being cocked. the bolt operates just like a mauser with a retracted striker.


I probably notice this more because i'm left handed (which makes for less leverage at the beginning of the stroke).


I think i'll call up the importer and ask them what the story is.

 

[the blind lefty]

i'd like to see this:
chambered for 50AE
a bullpup,semi-auto(blow back),using magnum research mags.
stainless construction with a laminated wood stock reminicent of a mannlicher;just my taste and nod to shorty tradition. i like the idea of ghost ring sights with ears. heavy,but i like heavy.

 

[Kaylee]

And the 5.56 version apparently uses Mini14 mags not M16 mags for some bizarre reason.

Likely because -- unlike the AR/M16, the Mini-14 mags are a rock-in type. Like the M14 and AK mags. From the description, sounds like they didn't want to redesign their feed system to accomodate two different kinds of magazine lockup. I agree from the mag standpoint M16 would make more sense.



HOWEVER -- I don't get it. What's the problem you're attempting to solve with a high-capacity, detatchable mag bolt action? 30-round detatchable magazines indicates a reliance on volume of fire over precision aimed fire.... which isn't best accomplished with a bolt action. (Yes, I know the guys with Lee Enfields whooped M1 Garand American butt at some competition or another.. I'm talking law of averages here).

Conversely -- if you're looking at a precision bolt action, why gook up the system with dangling magazines?

I don't mean any offense -- I guess I'm just curious what it's intended role is? Or is this just a way to keep all the goodies and stay CA legal?


-K

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

The role i'm envisioning for this is as a light, handy, inexpensive carbine that shares ammunition and magazine compatability with any other rifle you happen to have. I'm figuring on this gun being a "farther down the line" purchase after somone has already purchased a mini,an m-14, a fal or an ar. ( I personally don't care overmuch about capacity, but i do like quick reloading and not having to buy other magazines at 100 dollars a pop or whatever)

I think manufacturers should standardize on one type of magazine per caliber. I'm tired of having to go out and buy a bjornson-qfarson model 22-66 magazine whenever i get a new gun.

It has a whole bevy of uses, actually. IT makes a decent "truck gun" ( it's got all the punch of a .308 or a .223 but costs half to 1/3 of your AR or m-1a)

in .308, it would make a decent general purpose hunting rifle, as it has as much punch as you need at any reasonable distance.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Uh, Remington 76-series with mods?

Ten-rounders exist in profusion, albeit not in the classic military flavors. I guess that's part and parcle to the whole concept. Dunno if those guns lend themselves to mag conversions.

Carbines exist already, also. 18" barrels in 30-06 are pretty nice. I imagine a clever 'smith could arrange whatever you might want, sights-wise.

All sorts of caliber choices, but not .223. .243-.270-.308-.30-06-.35 Whelen. Would those do?

Slick trombone action, same lack of primary extraction oomph as any straight-pull design, but FAST with practice and good ammo.

Cheap. Typically $400-ish new.

Just a thought...

 

[Erich]

I like the idea of a straight-pull .308 that takes FAL mags. I like all that scout stuff you guys wanted to put on there, too!

Good idea.

As far as the "cock-on-opening"/"cock-on-closing" debate, I see both sides (and own both types of Mausers). I prefer "cock-on-opening", though, because (as a lefty w/ difficult access to the stupid safety on the bolt action Mausers) I like to leave one in the chamber with the gun uncocked and just have to raise the handle to get back in the game when hunting. (I am by no means vouching for the safety of this method/procedure, just explaining what I like.)

I'd prefer a straight-pull with an ambi-access safety. No one since Sam Colt has much cared what lefties want, though. Wait, Remington's been good to us.

 

[dZ]

heres one:

http://www.leitner-wise.com/pages/LWS1.htm

The LW-S1 is a bolt action 5.56 caliber (.223 Remington), magazine fed rifle utilizing the popular AR15/M16 magazine, thereby endowing the rifle with a large choice of capacities from existing magazines._ This particular aspect allows the rifle to fit logistically within any military, law enforcement or civilian user who currently uses theAR15/M16 as part of their inventory._ By use of the popular 5.56mm cartridge the LW-S1 becomes suitable for both military and law enforcement in urban use and amongst civilian hunters.__

The LW-S1 is an innovative, modular, and capable of delivering outstanding accuracy._ Its simple and evolutionary design allows rapid barrel, caliber and stock changes to be made to suit the environment in which it is to be deployed._ The Leitner-Wise action, a totally new development, offers the fastest ‘lock-time’ of any conventional firearm greatly enhancing the already outstanding accuracy._

Specifications._ Action:_ Leitner-Wise LW TB Steel Action._ Method of locking: Four-lug, rotary bolt with removable bolt head, locking directly into barrel extension._ Barrel: _ Heavy profiled stainless steel, 1 in 10 right hand twist, Match or Field Grade options._ Caliber:_ 5.56 mm (.223 Remington)._ Bedding: _ Aluminum Chassis Rail. _Trigger: Fully adjustable modular trigger system._ Sights: None fitted, Picatinny Rail on receiver._ Stock: Synthetic as standard._ Multi-stock options._ Accuracy: _ Better than 1 Minute of Angle._

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

THe LWS1 looks to be more of a "precision" rifle. I also noticed how there's no picture of it.

I really wish someone like mossberg would make this.

an aluminum reciever would lighten it up nicely, and I think they could make it work for the price stipluated.

 

[Deadman]

' HOWEVER -- I don't get it. What's the problem you're attempting to solve with a high-capacity, detatchable mag bolt action? 30-round detatchable magazines indicates a reliance on volume of fire over precision aimed fire.... which isn't best accomplished with a bolt action. (Yes, I know the guys with Lee Enfields whooped M1 Garand American butt at some competition or another.. I'm talking law of averages here).

Conversely -- if you're looking at a precision bolt action, why gook up the system with dangling magazines?

I don't mean any offense -- I guess I'm just curious what it's intended role is? Or is this just a way to keep all the goodies and stay CA legal? '

As you can see I'm in Sydney Australia, which means that I cannot own semi auto rifles (unless I become a park ranger, not exactly a career path I find all that interesting).

So while a 'high cap' enfield carbine chambered in modern rounds is unconventional, I still find it far more appealing than a 30-30 lever action or some super slick remchester bolt action rifle. If I had things my way I'd gladly buy a good quality AK varient, but I can't. So a fast bolt action rifle chambered in 7.62x39 that is a proven battlefield design, that can take 10/20 or 30 round detachable mags is definately on the top of my must have list. If for no other reason than that of a general purpose rifle.

Andrew Wyatt did you call the importer to find out what the current situation with these rifles is?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

no, i didn't.

I did find their URL, though.

WWW.tristarcustomguns.com

I might email them tonight if i have time.