Working Up

[Jammer Six]

Reading another thread on another board, in which the original poster apparently wanted to avoid working up a load for a new weapon, led me to ask:

why would someone want to avoid working up a load?

 

[daboone]

For the same reason they want to start out with a progressive press.

 

[Jammer Six]

I started with a progressive press. (Thank god...)

But I don't see the sense in skipping the work up procedure.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Perceived waste of powder, primers, etc.

Lack of understanding on fundamentals of accuracy.

Laziness.

Lack of understanding of handloading's inherent dangers.

Lack of understanding of differences between components/firearms.

I'm sure there's more.

 

[Jim243]

why would someone want to avoid working up a load?

Time and money, it takes me an hour and fifteen min each way to get to a rifle range. If I am loading 100 rounds, I do not want to use up 30 of them for test loads.

What I do is take the Max load and the Min load and divide it by 5 then drop the Max load and the Min load and load 3 test loads of powder (15 bullets) and test those for performance.

If adjustments need to be made then I do so, but usually I will find a good load within the three test loads.

Just what I do.
Jim

 

[Lost Sheep]

Who is to say what's right, as long as it's safe?

Jammer Six, please post a link.

Jim243, if I drove that far to the range, I would want to spend as much time and as many rounds as possible at the range, just to make the drive justifiable. Just my quirk. But then, I would probably do my load workup at the range, set up a windbreak and portable loading bench.

But, I shoot handguns, so Brian, I started loading without workup at all. I just picked a mid-power load and asked a guy at work who loads what a good powder was.

If he wants to load without workup, and knows that he will not achieve optimal accuracy or performance without it, encourage him to be safe and eventually the light may dawn on him. In the meantime, he will probably be having fun. Isn't that good enough? For a start? Many of the best chefs started out with peanut butter and jelly on toast.

Laziness and ignorance are curable. Just give him time. Shortcuts eventually lose their appeal.

Lost Sheep

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't believe we CAN encourage him to be safe without a work-up, starting at mid-level loads. I've personally never seen it, being that my reloading experience is quite limited that's no surprise, but Uncle Nick has several times mentioned having seen starting loads that showed pressure signs. If we know that's possible, I could not in good conscience tell a newb to have fun and be safe at mid-level loads with no work up.

There might be other reasons why someone with more experience would start at mid-level loads. Better knowledge of any number of the variables might make it perfectly safe and, if not, at least they know what they're getting themselves into.

 

[SL1]

Not to be argumentative, but:

Sometimes folks get so intent on "following the rules" that they don't stop to ask if a rule really applies in the situation at-hand.

For example, if you have a .357 Magnum revolver, and want to shoot some .38 Special handloads in it, it seems rather silly to "work-up" to the max .38 Special load data. Why? Because the .38 Special max pressure is way below the .357 Magnum start pressure. And, the arguments that it might be different in another gun really don't apply either, since you don't want to be shooting handloads in any guns that the loads were not developed for.

Yet, we still see posters telling others to "work-up" their Special loads, even thought they are using magnum guns.

So, without reading the thread mentioned in "the other forum" I really don't know what the discussion there was about.

SL1

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Of course there are exceptions.

"Start low and work up!" is practically the reloaders mantra. Far more likely to be true than not.

 

[Strafer Gott]

You absolutely can load minimums that prove to be hot enough. Some reloading guides just run hotter than others. Component substitutions can be a big factor. Too many variables to mess. Where is the guy that jumps in and says "If you want to blow your face off, take the direct approach, and quit trying to give reloaders a black eye!" He saves me a bunch of typing.

 

[Edward429451]

They never learned delayed gratification. These are the kids throwing tantrums in the store and forcing mommy to buy the toy now instead of waiting on his birthday etc..

This is the age of the Wimp, and you can get instant gratification if you scream loud enough. The wife will buy them a new gun if it blows up.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, and I am not directing that to anyone in particular, but methinks it is the source of the urge to skip the ladder.

 

[oneoldsap]

Some folks are just so selfimportant , that they can't waste their time on mundane things , like developing a load properly , and safely . Darwin will sort them out , in due time .

 

[huntinaz]

Without any information about the original thread, we don't know what is going on. What are y'all harping about, talking about whiny kids and blowing faces off... and presumably only the OP has any idea of the actual context of an alleged post on another forum.

Sometimes folks get so intent on "following the rules" that they don't stop to ask if a rule really applies in the situation at-hand.

For example, if you have a .357 Magnum revolver, and want to shoot some .38 Special handloads in it, it seems rather silly to "work-up" to the max .38 Special load data. Why? Because the .38 Special max pressure is way below the .357 Magnum start pressure. And, the arguments that it might be different in another gun really don't apply either, since you don't want to be shooting handloads in any guns that the loads were not developed for.

Yet, we still see posters telling others to "work-up" their Special loads, even thought they are using magnum guns.

So, without reading the thread mentioned in "the other forum" I really don't know what the discussion there was about.

Exactly. I was going to give a similar example. There are situations where little to zero workup is needed, depending on what the loader wants out of the load and what cartridge, platform, components etc. he is working with.

 

[Edward429451]

I don't get it. One has a magnum gun and has even worked up a magnum load in it, and it has been proven safe. I'm with you up to here.

So now from your Magnum data, you presume to be able to switch componants and go to special brass and go straight to the max load and you can declare this load safe because you shot a hotter load with different componants? Do I have this right, or did you lose me somehow?

You are not giving consideration to the brass being different, and a completely different pressure curve and burn dynamic because of the size of combustion area.

The gun being a magnum and rated for XX pressure in no way means that you can't get a pc of Special brass to let go in it. I wish you fellers luck because you need it to load haphazardly in this way.

Stick with known good brass and you'll likely get away with it for a long time and perhaps forever. You are taking chances though.

 

[huntinaz]

I don't get it. One has a magnum gun and has even worked up a magnum load in it, and it has been proven safe. I'm with you up to here.

So now from your Magnum data, you presume to be able to switch componants and go to special brass and go straight to the max load and you can declare this load safe because you shot a hotter load with different componants? Do I have this right, or did you lose me somehow?

No, go back and re-read it. He's talking about starting at max 38 special loads in a 357 magnum revolver.

 

[Edward429451]

How is what you said different than what I said? Starting with max loads 38 Special. It's ok because you got a Magnum revolver? Gotcha. Good luck with that. I don't load like that and it seems haphazard to do so.

 

[Jim243]

Jim243, if I drove that far to the range, I would want to spend as much time and as many rounds as possible at the range, just to make the drive justifiable

Lost Sheep, pistol ranges are closer, but living in a Metro area, rifle ranges are NOT, I usually have 3 rifles that I am working on at a time and only 4 hours (12:00 to 4:00) that it is available, so effeciency in working up loads is important to me. (So far it has worked). However sometimes a second trip is necessary.

Jim

 

[huntinaz]

How is what you said different than what I said?

Well, you said:

I don't get it. One has a magnum gun and has even worked up a magnum load in it, and it has been proven safe. I'm with you up to here.

So now from your Magnum data, you presume to be able to switch componants and go to special brass and go straight to the max load and you can declare this load safe because you shot a hotter load with different componants? Do I have this right, or did you lose me somehow?

It appears you think that we're suggesting taking a known 357 magnum load and then using 38spl brass to load it. Is this not what you were saying?

Regardless, it seems we're on the same page now:

Starting with max loads 38 Special. It's ok because you got a Magnum revolver? Gotcha. Good luck with that.

Well, considering that a minimum 357 mag load runs about TWICE the pressure of a max 38 spl load, I think we'll be ok

it is the source of the urge to skip the ladder.

Sometimes you have a really long ladder, a 357 Mag revolver is a good example. From light 38 spl to full house 357 Mag is a real long way to climb. Starting a max 38spl is still really far down the ladder.

I'm just saying think about what you are doing. Not specifically to you Ed, just to everyone in general. Read your reloading manuals, but also try to understand them and not just follow directions. If you aren't comfortable with something, don't so it. But this whole thread is ridiculous to me because we have zero context. I almost didn't post because arguing on the internet is such a waste of my time, and I knew it would come to that. All I'm saying is that there are situations where workup is not necessary, or you can fudge a starting load, or various other little things if you know why you are doing it. It doesn't make it dangerous.

 

[Jerry45]

When I was a young man I bought a 30/06 for hunting. I wanted to reload to save money. My book said for 180 gr. bullet starting load = A max load = E. I loaded C put five rounds under 2” at 100 yards and said that’ll do’er.

Later in life I decided I wanted to punch 1/4” holes and found out about ladder testing, bulet seating deapth, different powders, different bullet weights, neck sizing and etc. I’ve been pulling my hair out ever since. Rifle can punch 1/4 holes all day long but I'll be darn if I can.

 

[Strafer Gott]

Why do we call it working up? Why don't we call it working down? Load them at proof levels, then back off until they eject again. Superior understanding? Oh, I see. Hey y'all, watch this. Call up the manufacturer and see what they think. Safety is what keeps body parts intact. Superior understanding is what ER techs and surgeons use.