Wondering about hollow points.

[briandg]

I recently found a bunch of 9mm 147 grain plated hollow points in my bench. They're not for combat, they probably won't expand any way, and they make the bullet longer, so to get a proper oal they have to be seated deeper, reducing powder space. Velocities are akin to .38 spl 158 grain.

The question would be, just what the heck is the point in using a 9mm bullet in plated hollow point rather than the standard tc or flat point?

 

[buck460XVR]

I've been told, that when everything else is the same, hollow point bullets tend to be more accurate due to their center of balance being more towards the rear of the bullet, as compared to a bullet with a similar profile. If you look at the B.C.s of similar bullets, those with a HP are generally higher than those without.

 

[jmr40]

The newest FBI load is a 147 gr HP at about 1000 fps. According to their testing that is best balance of penetration, recoil, accuracy,defeating barriers, and expansion in a 9mm load. I'm sure some will argue there are better options, but I feel pretty sure it ain't a bad load.

I know that early 147 gr loads had a reputation for poor expansion, but apparently newer versions do better. I don't know exactly what you have. But it sounds like some early 147 gr bullets.

 

[FITASC]

Wasn't the 147 originally developed to be used with longer-barreled subguns?

 

[Sharkbite]

Wasn't the 147 originally developed to be used with longer-barreled subguns?

The 147 was originally designed to be used in conventionally suppressed guns. It keeps the bullet subsonic in a caliber that is traditionally supersonic. This keeps the suppressed shot as quiet as possible.

There where problems with Depts running 147gn in guns like the MP5sd. The SD taps gas off the barrel and slows the bullet down. So a 147 thru a SD is moving too slow to be effective. Ive read tests that got like 600fps out of some loads.

The 147gn is my choice for pistol use (both suppressed and unsuppressed). The latest offerings give good results throughout the testing protocol. Expansion and penetration is damn good

 

[GJSchulze]

so to get a proper oal they have to be seated deeper, reducing powder space.

No. No no NO!
OAL should change according to bullet dimensions. Less space increases pressure and more space decreases pressure. The longer bullet is usually more accurate. Look up the OAL for this type bullet and start there. I use a 147 gr FMJ-TC (truncated cone) with an OAL of 1.14. You can also measure the length of your current bullet and the 147 gr bullet and add the difference to current bullet's OAL to get the same seating depth.

You need to make sure that you don't exceed safe pressure nor do you (usually) want to compress the powder.

 

[briandg]

Hey, I NEVER ASKED HOW TO SCREW AROUND LOADING THEM, THERE ARE PRECISE INSTRUCTIONS AT ANY POWDER DATA CATALOG.

the probability seems to fit that the bullets of 147 grains were initially meant for carbine use for various reasons.

If you are going to make a big sacrifice in velocity to create a subsonic round, the absolutely obvious thing to do would be to increase bullet weigt. A 110 at 1,000 fps isn't as good as a 147 at 1,000 fps. So that part is also correct.

A hollow point in a rifle, just like a polymer tip,extends the length of the bullet and streamlines it by creating an empty space. BC is increased by adding length and curves. But that doesn't apply to handguns, any 9mm round will have the BC of a pickup truck.

The point of the question wasn't any of those, the point was, why is a junk quality bullet made into a junk quality hollow point bullet, when it comes with a loss of quality and functionality?

the things don't have a clear purpose, yet people still make them and buy them, and the only explanation I can think of is that the hollow point is as useless as a spoiler and racing stripes on a Yugo, but people get them anyway.

The 147 in a good defensive hp is a fine round. You will get adequate penetration and expansion,and under most conditions, it will cause wounds that are just as damaging as a similar, lighter weight bullet. In some circumstances, it may cause more damage than a lighter weight bullet.

 

[briandg]

Btw, the things are in an unmarked bag, in a box of junk that I acquired. Until I actually weigh and measure I can't be certain that they aren't actually 158 grain .357. The question still remains about the nine mm.

These bullets, along with a bunch of other small lot and other things are going to be tossed onto the floor, bonked with a big hammer, and tossed into the scrap bin. Loading them up to shoot them wouldn't be worth the time spent finding the data, setting up the dies, and putting it all together for maybe 100 rounds.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think Sharkbite answered the question as to why a 147 gr 9mm hollowpoint.

Your odd lot of plated 147 gr HP is probably offered as a cheap route to the same ballistics without the actual advantages of a JHP's center of gravity and flat square base. It's kewl, man. Me? I am loading 147 gr plated RN for smooth feeding and soft recoil. Accuracy is adequate for my use, but nothing very fine.

It was not a new idea, there were heavy subsonics in and shortly after WWII.
German wartime subsonics were 150 gr, post war 155, the British went clear up to 170 gr for silenced STENs and Patchetts. I have seen IMI/Uzi brand with 158 gr bullets.
Lyman used to show 9mm and .38 Super loads with the 158 gr .38 Special RN sized down.

 

[Unclenick]

Since point of impact for handguns is affected more by bullet weight than by how hot the charge is, I think these bullets would be a good choice for practice loads in a gun that was tuned to feed hollow points, and to identify any problem with feeding hollow points if it isn't. They probably expand at the right velocity. When hollow points were invented in the 19th century, they were lead bullets. These are just plated lead bullets.

Measure the OD's to see if they are nearer to 0.35-0.356 or to 0.357*0.358 to determine whether they are 9mm or 38. In the age of the plated bullet, the former would be more common, but both exist, of course. The 9mm weight would probably not be much over 147 grains, but the .38's could be anywhere nearby. I've seen lead in 150 grains, for example, so there's no reason someone couldn't plate them.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...probably won't expand any way..." What make you think that? A plated bullet is more like a cast bullet than anything else. Jacketed, they ain't. A cast bullet will flatten completely upon impact with hard things. A cast bullet will flatten completely upon impact with body armour.
"...make the bullet longer..." That's the only way you can have a heavier cylinder shape of a specific diameter. It has nothing to do with shooting or firearms at all. It's math, period.
147 grain 9mm bullets are primarily designed to "Make Major" in the assorted shooting games' mythical "Power Factor" hunt.

 

[GJSchulze]

USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA shooters often use 124 gr hollow points. They are used for better accuracy and none of them are intended nor made to expand.

I NEVER ASKED HOW TO SCREW AROUND LOADING THEM, THERE ARE PRECISE INSTRUCTIONS AT ANY POWDER DATA CATALOG

to get a proper oal they have to be seated deeper

You're right, you asked why they exist, but you also made a statement about having to seat them deeper. Since seating them deeper could be dangerous, I thought it prudent to say that no one should do that.

 

[buck460XVR]

the probability seems to fit that the bullets of 147 grains were initially meant for carbine use for various reasons.



A hollow point in a rifle, just like a polymer tip,extends the length of the bullet and streamlines it by creating an empty space. BC is increased by adding length and curves. But that doesn't apply to handguns, any 9mm round will have the BC of a pickup truck.

The point of the question wasn't any of those, the point was, why is a junk quality bullet made into a junk quality hollow point bullet, when it comes with a loss of quality and functionality?

the things don't have a clear purpose, yet people still make them and buy them, and the only explanation I can think of is that the hollow point is as useless as a spoiler and racing stripes on a Yugo, but people get them anyway.

Btw, the things are in an unmarked bag, in a box of junk that I acquired. Until I actually weigh and measure I can't be certain that they aren't actually 158 grain .357.

While most 9mm do have the BC of a pick-up truck, 147grainers have almost twice the BC of other lighter projectiles in that caliber. In a carbine, that may make a difference. Could it just be advertising hype or the fact that HPs look cooler to some folk? Sure, just like the colored plastic tips on some defensive ammo. As for not expanding, it depends on what you are shooting. The only plated bullets I shoot are in .45ACP. I shoot both Xtreme 230gr RN and 230hgr HPs. On steel gongs and bowling pins the HPs definitely expand and by doing so, expend some of their energy, thus less likely to ricochet. Same price, same accuracy, the HPs get the nod. You claim they are junk quality, basically since they are a plated bullet, but you do not even know for sure what caliber they are, so how do you know their quality? For me in .45ACP, the Xtremes shoot as well as any jacketed bullet I shoot. Since you seem to already have all the answers, I don't know why you asked a question.

 

[briandg]

T o heir, most of what you said made a whole lot of sense to me, but Those in my possession probably could not have expanded efficiently in tissues at 9 mm velocities. They are just too heavily constructed. But, thanks for the answer.

Making a longer, heavier bullet even longer by adding a cavity in the front reduces powder capacity at every step if your oal is kept equivalent to lighter, solid point bullets. Btw, trust me, I can do math.

Okay, hollow point pistol rounds have better accuracy, higher weight can be juiced up to higher regulation power, and are used in competing? Okay, I'll buy that I guess, but it brings to question, why would they be sold in baggies of fifty? A specialist product that doesn't really serve any other purpose, can be replaced by solid plated bullets, and for the most part, seems unnecessary for the average person who goes out and fires at paper. It strikes me as an overall weird thing.

I may have bought them thirty years ago to work up effective loads. They may have been given to me. At that time the 147 was suggested. There was also a large bag of 124 php of identical design that I loaded up over the last few days, maybe 300?

I've tended to use 124 grain bullets. I prefer the slightly more powerful recoil. The last month or so I have eliminated a bunch of stored junk. Short lots, things I just don't want. A few pounds of lead and brass went into scrap and I loaded about 2,000 rounds to use up other boxes and lots.regarding scrapping some of it, to me, setting up a new round just to use up a small amount of a component just isn't worth the trouble.

Accuracy, power factor, and regulation loads for competition. That makes sense.

 

[briandg]

Buck, check you facts before you post unhelpful information. Your bc statement is wrong.

A jacketed round nose 115 has a bc of about 130 and a 140 grain hp has about .115.

I asked a question because I wanted information and several of the other posters actually gave me some useful information.

 

[hdwhit]

briandg wrote:
...what the heck is the point in using a 9mm bullet in plated hollow point rather than the standard tc or flat point?

Several have already pointed out that it tends to move the center of mass further back which supposedly improves accuracy.

Another reason is that they are believed less likely to ricochet.

 

[briandg]

A hollow pointed lead bullet would possibly collapse a bit more easily and flatten more easily, absorbing more of the kinetic energy by deforming the bullet, hence leaving less energy for the bullet in case of a ricochet.

Let's assume that a standard and flat poi t bullet with identical energy levels hit identical steel plates. If the hollow point bullet absorbs more of that energy than the flat point bullet, it will mean that less push is imparted to the plate. While that may be a good thing when shooting steel in some ways, it might not be desirable for something like silhouettes, where the maximum possible transfer is needed to k lock down the steel.

Been interesting. I still see no real benefit to a paper published cyber or can blaster.

In any case, I've loaded up about a thousand rounds over the past few days, and 300 of them were the 124 php. My range, however, has plastic targets that are damaged by hollow points, so I'm going to avoid them.

 

[buck460XVR]

Buck, check you facts before you post unhelpful information. Your bc statement is wrong.

A jacketed round nose 115 has a bc of about 130 and a 140 grain hp has about .115.

I did check. Both Lyman and Speer show 147s as having the highest BC of any of the other 9mm projectiles listed. Didn't look hard at 140s tho, 'cause I thought we were talking about 147s.

I asked a question because I wanted information and several of the other posters actually gave me some useful information.

If you go back and look, you'll see I was the first to tell you HPs were generally more acurate and generally less likely to ricochet.

Let's assume that a standard and flat poi t bullet with identical energy levels hit identical steel plates. If the hollow point bullet absorbs more of that energy than the flat point bullet, it will mean that less push is imparted to the plate. While that may be a good thing when shooting steel in some ways, it might not be desirable for something like silhouettes, where the maximum possible transfer is needed to k lock down the steel.

Since the HP expends part of it's energy when striking the plate/bowling pin, that energy, transferred to the target, makes it move more. At least in my experience.

My range, however, has plastic targets that are damaged by hollow points, so I'm going to avoid them.

Here's where you may have answered your own question as to why use a non-expanding HP. To get the most accuracy while doing the least amount of damage to fragile targets.

Folks here tried to give you reasonable answers to your questions, yet you tended to dismiss them all. You claimed you weren't going to waste the time to load those 100 "junk" bullets, but probably spent as much time defending your stance against them here, as it would have taken you to load them. Would I load 100 bullets of unknown quality just to send them downrange? No, not in 9mm. But I wouldn't make a big stink about them on a reloading forum either.

 

[Nathan]

Do you know the brand? Not sure why, but some brands say their hp plating is thicker.

In addition, hp's are considered more accurate. That is why Hornady made the HAP.

Some people would load them to see if they are a winner in their pistol.....hence the 100 or smaller pack sizes.

Why would you smash what you likely paid to have formed?

 

[the possum]

May not apply to everyone, but here's why I have bought some plated hollowpoints in the past: varmint blastin'. They bridge the gap in cost and effectiveness between cast lead round nose bullets and good jacketed hollowpoints. I.E., they transfer energy to critters better than a round nose bullet, but are usually quite a bit cheaper than "good" bullets commonly loaded for defense. When ya burn through (up to) 50 rounds a night, that cost does add up, especially to a cheapskate like me.