Women and the S&W "J" Frame.

Hi. I am new to the Forum, but I have been around guns all my life. In reading the inputs here, I can see that there is a lot of right thinking people involved. So I thought I would give some right thinking input of my own

A few years’ back I read a story in one of the gun mag’s that has stayed with me. The basic story is as follows:

A nurse got off of a late night shift at a hospital, and was walking across the parking lot to her car when she was accosted by a man. The man came at her from behind and placed his arm across he throat, cutting off her air. In the brief moment she had to act, she was able to reach into her purse and secure her S&W “J” frame revolver. Extracting the gun from her purse, she was able to reach back over her shoulder and fire one round, point blank into her attackers head, ending the assault and with no doubt saving her life.

In my opinion, the S & W “J” frame sub-nose revolver is about the perfect PD weapon for a woman. They are small, light weight and easy to conceal in a purse (or other place). While maybe not the easiest gun to shoot, still it doesn’t take much training to learn to shoot one effectively. It just doesn’t get much easier than a “J” frame when things get ugly.

Purse carry? Yes. Use a shoulder bag, put your hand in the purse holding the gun, car keys in your other hand, and you will be ready to defend yourself immediately. It’s good enough to make us guys re-think that whole “man-bag” thing!

I made a mistake with the first handgun I bought wife, which was S&W 442. She could shoot the 442 effectively, but she didn’t enjoy it, and this meant she wasn’t interested in shooting it except once in a while. A couple of years later, I acquired an as new 640, and what a change this caused. Now she was eager to go the range every chance she gets. She will put two boxes through it and then be looking over at me to see if I have any more ammo! Can she shoot well? Yes, all rounds well with-in the 9 ring on a B29 at 25’. The two things I did do right on the 442 was installing a Hogue 3 finger rubber grip, and the choice of an enclosed hammer gun. My wife really likes the combination. The enclose hammer makes the gun very simple for her to understand and shoot. No buttons, no levers, just point and shoot. The Hogue grip is about the best thing you can do to a “J” fame to make it enjoyable to shoot.

A note on load. Her gun is loaded with Federal 110 Hydra-Shok PD. I know many of you have small revolvers loaded with .357, but even I don’t load my Colt Magnum Carry with .357 (.38 HS 129 +P). The Magnum rounds are just too much out of anything that weights less than about 2 lbs and has a 4” barrel (like my Python). The one exception I would have to that would be the Ruger SP 101 with a 3” barrel - I have shot .357 out of one of those, and it is a very effective and controllable package.

Some information involving the 110 HS PD ammo. I had an opportunity to shoot some of this inside an abandon house. I fired my wife’s 640 with no ear protection, in near dark conditions. Both the noise and flash were quite acceptable and I was unable to fire all the rounds in the gun to point of aim. Afterwards, I cut away the dry-wall I had fired into and recovered the rounds. None of these had penetrated the stucco outer wall of the house. In other words, this round will not penetrate through the wall of a stucco home, which as far as I am concern makes it a good choice for home defense.

Bob
 

FirstFreedom

Moderator
Little anecdote...

A friend of mine's wife just went through a rather extensive process of researching which gun to get for her first and only gun for self-defense, as she is out in rural areas a lot taking pictures. She was previously an anti-gun person - prior to marrying my friend and slowly coming around. She is petite and a little bit 'wimpy', I think she'd agree.

She researched and shot both semi-autos and revolvers, and decided on a revolver. I recommended to her stuff like J-frame sized guns and the slightly larger "compact" frame of the Taurus - the many Tracker revolvers. And the ones I recommended were all snubbies. After shooting several in this size range, with .38 spl loads, both regular and +P, she decided that the recoil was still too stout & uncomfortable for her. So she ended up wanting a gun with more heft for recoil absorption, and chose the medium-framed, 4" barrel Taurus 66 - but she plans to use only .38 spls in it. The medium frame is not too large for her hands, and controls the recoil well. So the J frames may be perfect for many women (and men), but certainly not necessarily across the board.
 

Jkwas

New member
I have a small frame taurus, like a J-frame. My wife hates it. She prefers a 9mm. Settled on a Millenium pro. Go figure. I thought my wife would love the small revolver, but the heavy trigger pull, muzzle flash, and kick scared her off. I'm just glad she found something that's comfortable for her.
Lesson learned?: Let her pick it out.
 

gb_in_ga

New member
SWMBO is one who is pretty well recoil adverse and is arthritic. It turns out that she is not really able to handle a J frame, even a .38, but is able to handle a K frame with appropriate grips.

Again, like it has been said -- Let Her Choose.

OTOH, A few months ago at the range I came to the aid of a young gentleman and his mother. He was trying to help her shoot her brand new Taurus small frame .38 snubby -- her "first and only". She was completely intimidated by it, being a new shooter. She would have probably been better off learning with a larger frame revolver and graduating to the small frame snubby after she got the hang of it. It turned out that her buying what she wanted was not the best thing, once she actually got it on the range. She chose what she wanted and ended up with a gun that she really liked but couldn't control.
 

Hank's Dad

New member
My lovely wife does extremely well when shooting my S&W 66. She loves it, even with +P .38 ammo. But she does not like to shoot .357's out of it. Just too much noise and blast.

When she first started to carry, she wanted a lightweight snubbie. But she didn't like to shoot those much at all. So she went to an all steel model 640, and she loves that. I also put some better grips on it, but Pachmeyers. She is able to hit what she needs to, and carries it in a variety of ways.

I think your story is very common.
 

timothy75

New member
I also think we do our women a disservice by always advising a snub which is a difficult weapon to master. DA itself is difficult enough already. I'm a fan of the Glock19 for women, men, kids, and seniors who are new to shooting.
 

pax

New member
There is no one best gun for all women. Oddly enough, women are all individuals (just like men!)

If I'd had to start on a J frame revolver -- lightweight or no -- I would never have gotten excited about shooting. I've got friends who love them, friends who hate them, and friends who fall somewhere in between. My opinion about snubbies, now, is that they're pretty cool. But as a new shooter, they terrified me: too painful to shoot, too short to control, too hard to see the sights, and too few rounds inside them for comfort. That was then. Now? I like them and shoot them fairly well. But they were far from being non-intimidating for this new shooter!

As for the wonders of purse carry, it is not necessary in most cases. And off-body carry is such a generally bad idea that it should never be the default setting, for women or for men. Off-body carry is slow, prone to fumbly-fingered mistakes, and all too apt to result in a firearm left where it should never have been left. For these reasons, IMO, off-body carry should be the last choice, and considered only after all other carry options have been given a fair shake.

pax
 

croyance

New member
People are not one size fits all. However, some points against the J-frame as being the only gun:
It is small and light. Recoil is unpleasant. This means less practice. It can also mean a nasty flinch that won't help when the SHTF.
It also means that it is harder to master - it takes more practice to use effectively.
The small size makes the trigger reach too close.
There is a smaller grip - good luck getting a good hold on it.

I think a medium framed revolver is a better idea. It is superior in most respects and with a 3" barrel is not much larger.

Isn't the 442 a J-frame? Why wasn't that ideal to begin with?

I think it is better to find a gun that fits the hands of the person who is going to use it. Then learning can begin. There is a big tendancy of guys to get cute little guns to women, but those small guns have big recoil because of weight.
 

atlctyslkr

New member
My wife carries a Taurus Model 85 and loves it (after I changed the grips). She controls it well and has no problem with +p recoil. She has a special purse for it. She alternates back and forth between purse carry and on-the-person carry depending on the situation and weather. So far so good.

I think the J Frame and it's many copies/derivatives is just about the best carry gun for most people. It requires a lot of up front practice but once mastered it's tough to beat. No safties to worry about, jams, and with a shroud or DAO no snags.

Oddly enough she likes the hammer. My 85 has an exposed hammer. I tried to warm her up to my S&W 649 but she wasn't biting.
 

springmom

New member
I love my m37

...but it wasn't my first, and that was a good thing.

My first gun was an XD-40, and I bought a BUG compact Bersa Thunder .380. The Bersa had a tendency to "spit" burning gunpowder on my hand when I shot it, and eventually I traded it in for my S&W m37. I like it, and often carry it as my only carry in hot weather because it is soooooo concealable. But it took a LOT of practice to get good with it and I am still not as accurate with it as I am with the Springfield. I'm good enough with it for self defense but I can't drill out the X-ring with it and it certainly isn't one I can shoot consistently past the 7-yd line.

I'm always a little amused when men start talking about what gun "women" ought to carry. When do we get to define what guns men should carry? :p Seriously, you carry the one that fits you, that you can shoot well, and that you can carry consistently.

Springmom
 

HSMITH

New member
I have bought my wife 4 J-frame's and she still hasn't found one she likes:D :D Maybe she will like the next one or two, I will keep buying them for her since I love them and if she doesn't want it I will just have to make do with the leftover guns she doesn't like.....

My wife likes full sized 1911's, primarily alloy Para P14's, and G17's. Neither are very concealable, but at least she has a couple that she likes. The snappy recoil of the small guns keep her from liking them.
 

springmom

New member
Rotfl!

Great site, Pax, and a great essay. And yes, Tamara, you must now get rid of all your 1911's. You can give them to me.... :D

Springmom
 

BillCA

New member
Having introduced a number of women to shooting I can safely say that you cannot predict what type or size of firearm a woman will find enjoyable to shoot.

All you can do is offer advice and steer them away from making a gross mistakes (like selecting a single-action or a .25 ACP). Other than that, help them rent some guns and try them out to see what she thinks works well.

One woman I helped loved my S&W Model 39 so much she spent eight months tracking down a used one in excellent shape for herself. She is 5'2" and all of about 110 lbs.

Another woman found my Colt .380 to her liking and actually shot it better than I did. She's 5'5" and 125lbs. Surprisingly one woman found the Beretta M92 and it's Taurus cousin perfect for her, despite the fat grip -- and she's only 5' 1/2" and 106 lbs! She actually purchased a .40 S&W Beretta and nothing gets outside of the 9-ring on a B27 target!

My biggest surprise was a friend's wife who turned pro-gun after waking up with an intruder in the house one afternoon. She got away but it changed her thinking (funny how that happens). We went to the range where she fired over a dozen guns -- 9mm, .38, .357, .40, and .45 ACP. What surprised me was nothing seemed to bother her, not even the concussion of the .357 Magnum at the indoor range. I finally handed her a 1911 (Colt Series 70 Gov't) and some minor instruction. Seven shots later there was a ragged hole at 12 o'clock in the 10-ring and a big smile on her face. She's only 5'4" and 120 lbs. That was four years ago and she now "drags" her husband to the range at least twice a month.
 
Let me back up a bit.

Guys & Gals

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying that a "J" frame was the only weapon for a female. Nothing could be further from the truth - you shoot what you like, period. What I was coment on was my own experence, which I will try and clarify.

After my return from Viet Nam in 1971, I got out of the gun thing all together. But long about the time of the '92 riot in LA, my wife asked if it would be a good idea to do something about home defense, which lead us to getting a Winchester Defender 12 gage. At this point I decided to get back into shooting so I bought a Ruger 22/24, and over the next year shot about 10,000 rounds getting my skills back. During this time my wife and I rented and tried several different guns starting with .22 semi-auto's and revolvers, and working our way up to 9mm and .38's. This done we went to the gun store to buy us each a hand gun. The natural for me was a Colt 1911, but when it came time for my wife to pick out a gun for herself, she was not interested in anything but a revolver. She checked out several, and decided on a S & W 442. At this point I had never owned a revolver, and had not fire them much, but since her choice was a revolver, that is what she got. Of course if I had know more then than I do now I would have made sure she had a chance to fire an airweight before we bought it, but live and learn. Given her dislike for shooting the airweight, the 640 I later bought her made her very happy. And as for a 2' "J" frame being hard to shoot well, all I can say is you couldn't tell that by the way she shoots it! She is a natural with it.

Of course once I had a chance to spend some time shooting a revolver, I began to get hooked. This lead to my getting a Colt (did I meantion I am Colt man?!!!) Detective Special, and the great joy of being a revolver shooter. Turns out my wife was right - Revolvers are really great.

Bob
 

Ernest T Bass

New member
Oh no...

When I saw the title of this thread I thought that it was going to be something totally different. I was expecting pin-up models posing with their revolvers. How disappointing. :(
 

Mastrogiacomo

New member
I made the mistake of getting the 442 and had the same reaction as your wife. Got rid of it too. Now though I'm giving snubbies another chance. I got a S&W 60 2" which I love, a Lady Smith 36, I've got a pre lock 36 on lay away and another 37 airlight pre lock with a bobbed hammer also on lay away. This gun will be damn close to the 442 but I plan on dumping the factory grips and putting on a Pachmayr compac. I think with the right load and grips, she'll slowly get used to the 442 and appreciate it.

Laura
 

Candiru

New member
A J-frame revolver provides excellent reliability in a very small package, but as others have pointed out, the double-action trigger and stout recoil can be a real turn-off.

I take the opposite stance from many and assert that a J-frame revolver is not a gun for a non-gun person, but is instead better suited for someone who is willing to put in a lot of range time.
 

Jkwas

New member
I think the kick and flash can be overcome with proper ammunition. But too anemic of a load will not be productive. Shooting a snub can be akin to a bomb going off in your hand. But I like it!
 
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