Witness/Tanfoglio Combat owners?

[IM_Lugger]

Never seen one in person but I can get one on sale for a pretty good price - almost half of what I paid for my CZ 75 stainless actually! and they come in 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm! I have guns in each caliber already so was probably go for a 10mm and look for a .40 barrel down the road.

They look like quality guns from what I can tell, what are the pros and cons?

Here's what the model I'm talking about looks like.

 

[Skans]

I have a Witness "Stock" 10mm. It is has been a great performer for me. I am accurate with it and recoil isn't bad at all. I only have about 400 rounds through it, but it has functioned flawlessly. For a double-stacked 10mm, it fits nicely in my hand - not too thick. I have the hard-chromed version and fit and finish is very nice, clean and sharp lines. I'd shoot it more, but 10mm is expensive to shoot - that's my only complaint.

 

[testuser]

Hi there!

The Tanfoglio Witness is generally a quality weapon. I own a Witness Match. However, like a lot of pistols they have some quarks, mostly related to engineering changes made in 2005. That's when the smaller sized Witness was discontinued (TZ-75, it's the size of a CZ-75B) and the somewhat larger Witness was retained.

I have experimented extensively with the weapon in .40 S&W, 10mm, and .38 Super.

Note the slide in your photo. See how round it is? That was one of the engineering changes, material removed from the slide. The round slides, especially, can crack particularly in 10mm and .45 ACP.

I own three Witness slides. The one that came with my Match, an older slide from Numrich, and a newly designed slide from the factory. (I don't personally own the more problematic "round" slide as shown.)

The newest slide is from EAA directly and is heavier and thicker than the other two, so hopefully they've fixed the problem. Be careful, though, the Numrich slide looks like the one I ordered from EAA, but when you examine it closer the current product EAA slide is thicker.

The current issue is with the magazines.

- 9mm and .40 S&W have feeding problems and trust me, I've been through all of the new and old style mags. The problem is feeding a short cartridge through a long action. It's not hard to "fix" the .40 S&W mags, but I don't know of a satisfactory solution for 9mm.

- 10mm mags were more reliable, but would also occasionally jam. Don't worry there's a fix and it's easy.

- .38 Super and .45 ACP mags are generally considered good from the factory. However, Mec-Gar makes magazines for the Witness in these two calibers and they're quite high quality. My .38 Super mags hold 18 rounds (yes, 18) and feed perfectly.

The magazine fix: For perfect feeding in 10mm/.40 S&W mags, should you have a problem, I take the stock mag body and replace the follower and spring with the follower and spring from one of the Mec-Gar mags.

Mec-Gar apparently uses the same spring and follower for their .38 Super and .45 ACP mags. Magazine capacity is reduced to "only" 14 rounds, but it's worth it for reliable function. Because .40 S&W is derived from the 10mm it works very well for both calibers.

Forget about the 9mm version. You might get a good mag you might not and no aftermarket is available. Don't waste your money on Wolff mag springs for the fullsize mags, I find they won't fix the problem and seem to be a bit short.

In 10mm the recoil is only moderate, less than my Glock 20. However, it throws brass into orbit even with a heavier spring. Some say it's best to shorten the extractor for 10mm, or you could just live with it.

That brings me to the recoil springs, which are somewhat underpowered for the Witness line. That's not uncommon for a lot of pistols. Get a package of Wolff springs and use the spring that matches your load.

So, in summary...

- Some older .45 ACP and 10mm pistols had longevity problems (slide cracking), especially with the "round slide" show in your photo.

- New, thicker slides have been made available recently that I assume were designed to fix the problem.

- Feeding problems are common with the Sabatti magazines supplied with current Witness pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W and sometimes in 10mm.

- There is an easy fix for .40 S&W/10mm pistols and aftermarket mags for .38 Super and .45 ACP. Unless you like to tinker, then skip the 9mm and get a CZ-75B or wait until the factory comes out with a fix.

- Witness pistols tend to be a little under sprung.

- .38 Super is my favorite caliber for the Witness line. 18 rounds in a fullsize mag, cocked and locked carry (easily converted to single action), feeds great, good accuracy, excellent ergonomics and no real longevity issues.

I hope this helps!

 

[Willie D]

Thanks for that rundown, Testuser!

I briefly had a 9mm Witness of the older, smaller variety that was nothing but trouble, reliability wise.

That said, I always thought the ergos, sights and trigger were nicer than CZ's so I've never totally discounted the brand. Nice to know the .45 is out there as an option.

 

[Skans]

Testuser - you provided some excelent information. I've never heard that about "rounded slides" before. Would you mind letting me know if my Stock (picture below) has one of the rounded slides? I'm not familiar with this.

 

[DarkHorse72]

I bought a brand new Witness 9mm and it was something I had wanted for a long time since the ergos and slide and design was just very comfortable.

From the start, it just shot poorly and always far off left. I bench rested it and it still shot just as poorly. I sent it back to factory twice and waited weeks for it to come back. Each time nothing was adjusted.

I had experience shooting a 5906 and a 92fs and I'm generally a pretty decent shooter but this Witness just bothered me that I could not shoot it straight.

I sold it to a gun shop and took a loss. Lesson learned.

I still love the CZ75 design and next time I won't be buying a Witness. I'd go for a CZ75 for sure.

 

[testuser]

Skans,

Your pistol has the same slide as my Witness Match which I bought new in August. You can see how much more material it has than the more round slide in the first picture.

Curiously enough, the .38 Super slide I ordered from EAA is even more robust than the one on my Match. Anyway, the match slides have a reputation of holding up pretty well.

When doing my research I could only find one account of a .40 S&W Match with that slide cracking. From what I can tell it's rare for the square slides to ever develop problems. Heck, do enough internet searches and you'll find broken guns of all makes and who knows how well the guy treated his pistol.

I wouldn't worry about. Just check around the ejection port when you clean it. It will probably never develop an issue.

On the other hand, you'll find numerous accounts of .45 ACP and 10mm "round slides" cracking, though.

I've had three CZ pistols. Excellent, excellent guns. Although, I remember buying one in 2002 for $300 brand new with a (then rare) 15 round mag.

 

[WESHOOT2]

I own three

I have two 'small frame' version originally purchased as 9x19, and one large-frame in 45 ACP.

My first, now over fifteen years, was wildly inaccurate when purchased. Bore was .3595". New hard-fit Nowlin and hardchromed (thank you Mr. Cogan) it is my favorite gun.
Rd-ct exceeds 100K.

My other 9x19 also gets shot in 9x21 and 41 AE with the 9mm slide, and an entire top end for 40 S&W. Rd-ct is stupid, and THIS gun went to EAA this year for service (it became unreliable).
It was returned in fabulous condition; it's in my carry bag right now.

My 45 was incredibly accurate but not fully reliable, but just too accurate to dump.
I fit a 38 Super top end and that conversion was incredible. I mistakenly sold that top to buy a Redhawk, and it is the only 'gun sale' I've ever regretted.

I sent the 45 with the 9, and it, too, was returned in fabulous condition; still accurate, and now reliable!

My EAAs are my favorite guns. I have and had some very high-end 1911s, but my go-tos are my Witnesses.



(folks who know me know my Witnesses are poorly cared for, abused beyond reason to include considerable ammo development of the unsafest kind, and generally the worst-cared-for handguns in existence. ask about the rock-hammering incident......)

 

[hemiram]

I have a 9MM older Tanfoglio "Mossad" compact, in satin nickel, and it's the most accurate short barreled 9mm I've ever seen. It's about 20 years old, and I have no idea how many rounds were put through it before I got it, but it shot great, with the original mag. I've bought three new mags for it, and two of them work fine, but the other one doesn't seem to sit quite high enough to feed rounds correctly doesn't. A friend's early Witness compact is an identical gun except for the name on it.

I did have a .45 Witness Full Sized, and it was a great gun. Zero issues and I put over 2000 rounds through it. I only sold it because I needed cash. I will soon buy another one.

 

[steve4102]

Note the slide in your photo. See how round it is? That was one of the engineering changes, material removed from the slide. The round slides, especially, can crack particularly in 10mm and .45 ACP.

The newest slide is from EAA directly and is heavier and thicker than the other two, so hopefully they've fixed the problem.

No I do not think they fixed the problem!

I have a new Witness Compact in 40 S&W. After a couple hundred rounds the slide cracked. I sent it back to EAA, had to pay shipping both ways, they replaced the slide (round top). After a couple hundred rounds the second slide cracked again. Back to EAA on my dime both ways again. It's a POS and stay away!