Winchester Model 70... The good the bad

[SRE]

I own a few Model 70's. Couple pre 64's couple post's. Regarding the post-64's what are considered the bad years? The ones I have are from 1981 to later. And my 1981 .308 featherweight is a great gun. No issues with bolt slop etc... And the later ones I own are nice too. No comparison to the pre's but still nice rifles. I've never sought out the post 64's, they just kind of came my way and were nice so I took the deals. However, I'm looking at a post-64 in .222. Made in mid 1970's. Sight unseen a buddy's brother has it out of state.

Any issues with them in this time frame? Always hear about the bolt play problems but really unsure how long past 65 this occurred.

Thx in advance!

 

[49willys]

I have a 1968 in .308w that is a great rifle.'68 is the year they added the anti-bind groove in the bolt.This gun is accurate,smooth and tight.Im verry happy with it.

 

[Pathfinder45]

I bought one new in 1973, a 270. By that time, Winchester added an anti-bind slot to the right locking lug. Very smooth feeding, it was a good rifle. After bedding the action and floating the barrel, it's mediocre accuracy dramatically improved.

 

[jmr40]

The biggest complaint with the post 64 rifles is simply that they no longer were CRF. Taking away that feature cost more buyers than actual quality issues. In fact, the Winchesters with CRF made after WW-2 were getting spotty as to quality. Winchester was in a bind financially. The model 70's with CRF were expensive to manufacture and Remington was making model 700 of better quality and selling them for less. Winchester simply couldn't make the 70 and sell it at a price that could compete with the 700. Since WW-2 they kept cutting quality on the 70 trying to reduce costs.

Winchester went to PF actions which are cheaper to manufacture and made an attempt to improve quality. But it was still spotty from 1964 to about 1980. Most of those shoot just fine, but fit and finish were often sub standard. The Winchester name was sold to a group of investors who formed the United States Repeating Arms Co. and used the Winchester name. Some of those rifles had USRAC stamped on them as well. The rifles made 1980-1992ish are very good quality and excellent bargains.

In 1992 they brought back the CRF feature and sold them under the "Classic" name. The Classics made 1992-2006 are probably the best of the model 70's. They use the pre-64 design, but are manufactured using modern methods. If you want a shooter those are the best of the New Haven built 70's. After 1992-2006 all the PF model 70's manufactured were relegated to the budget line of rifles. Not bad, but not the quality given to the "Classics.

After the New Haven factory was closed in 2006 no Winchesters were made until 2008 when production started at the FN factory in South Carolina. That production has now been moved to a factory in Belgium. The FN made rifles are very good as well.

 

[Guv]

I have 3 USRAC M70's, a Lightweight 308, XTR Sporter 270 and an XTR Sporter Varmint 243. All very nice guns with good looking stocks and nice bluing. All shoot very well and will actually feed rounds from the mag while held upside down. The 308 is my main hunting rifle due to it's light weight.

 

[SIGSHR]

I have only 1, an XTR in 308 purchased new in 1978. On an Autumn day in 1979 in fading light I fired a 1.25" group at 100 yards. GI ammo, iron sights.

 

[Paul B.]

I will probably be condemned to the 7th level of hell, asked that I be drawn and quartered, flamed and burned at the stake for what I am about to say. I think the pre-64 M70 is one of the most overrated rifled ever to come out. I can ay this because I
've owned a few. A nice Featherweight, a .264 Win. Mag. Westerner and a .375 H&H. All were well made, no arguing the quality of workman ship. The coned breech did aid feeding but left a bit of the case exposed. I even like their triggers which thankfully are also on the post 64's. I have exactly one USRAC New Haver Winchester, a .338 Mag. that frankly beats me to death. Took it lout of the tupperware stock and into a McMillan, added a Decelerator pad and a muzzle brake and it still beats me to death. Still trying to figure this one out as I shoot much bigger cartridges than the .338. Think .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby from Ruger #1's with that skimpy thing they call a recoil pad colored red.
Personally, I prefer rifles based on the 98 Mauser action and all my customs are built on them. Just my personal preferences, nothing more. I have several rifles on the post 64 actions and liked them. They're accurate and work just fine. A favorite is a Featherweight in 7x57 that I enjoy shooting a lot. Just might take it on my next elk hunt to see hows well it does on them.
Paul B.

 

[joed]

I've owned model 70s from the 1980's, 2005 and 2014. My best shooter is a Stealth in .308 that I bought when it was announced they were closing down. Never an issue with this one and it is extremely accurate. It will be one of the last that I let go.

Models from the 1980's never gave me a problem. Any with a wooden stock needed bedding but that was all. And I can say the same for Remington.

My 2014 Featherweight is nice and has CRF, but I haven't shot it enough to form an opinion of how good it is.

I don't see much reason for CRF. I've owned lots of guns without it and never a problem, they have never failed. So I kind of chuckle when I hear "I wouldn't own a rifle without CRF".

Good years, bad years, I don't don't think it means a thing. There is always one that is a lemon. But I've never owned one.

I've owned Remington, Winchester, Ruger and Savage. My favorites are Remington and Winchester.

 

[James K]

I agree that the pre-64 Model 70 was overrated. It was heavily promoted by Jack O'Connor and a few others as the "Rifleman's Rifle" but never quite lived up to the hype. They all shot well, but none compared to a good custom Springfield sporter. Wood was good, but nothing to write home about, wood to metal fit could be good or bad, checkering was always only so-so. And they were expensive, not because of careful craftsmanship but because of Winchester's inefficiency.

But I disagree on the lack of controlled round feeding in the post-64 guns. I was working in a gun shop at the time and 90%+ of our customers would not have known CRF if it was tattooed on their foreheads. But they did know 1/4 inch fore-end gaps, awful looking pressed checkering, polyurethane that looked like it was applied with a fire hose, spotty bluing, wood that appeared to be unstained and unfinished, metal parts with burrs, bolts that felt like the action was full of sand, and trigger pulls that made a typical Mauser 98 feel like a match rifle.

The Remington 700 was fairly new (1962) and had been scorned by Winchester fans as "stamped out crap". But when they got a look at the new Winchester, a lot of them took another look at the Remington. They saw a plastic coated stock there too, and stamped checkering, but the wood was generally very nice, with good figure, the checkering pattern was nice, the stock fit and (surprise!) the "stamped out crap" shot very well. A lot of Model 70 fans switched and never looked back.

An offshoot of that Winchester disaster was the company's blindness to the competition from Ilion and their insistence that they were losing sales to military surplus rifles. That delusion led them to support the Gun Control Act of 1968, which would probably not have passed without the financial and moral support of a major American gun company. And for that I will never forgive Winchester, even though the old company expired decades ago.

Jim

 

[Rogerbeep]

In 1999 I bought a M70 Special Edition Fagen in .300 Magnum. I bought it in Pocatello Idaho at a place called Lee Akins sports shop, now closed. I was looking for a M70 but was disappointed that there wasn't any really nice stocks just the regular walnut, unless you wanted a super grade.

No sooner did it enter my mind why Winchester didn't put a custom stock on their rifles, so one day I walked into the Lee's gun shop and lo and behold there it was on display, only this one was for the RMEF raffle. He told me he would order two in for me, and I could pick between the two as some of the maple stocks had a tiger stripe pattern and others with marble swirls. I picked the tiger striped one, but I should of bought both considering the Connecticut factory's outcome. Hind sight is 20/20

I've always wanted a M70 CRF in 300 mag with a 26" barrel with a fancy stock. This purchase was a big deal to me because it had everything I was looking for and, since I've seen them shoot as a young lad and were always spectacular in the field, and then too I bedded one for a friend that was chambered in 270 Weatherby and it was reborn as a laser beam shooter. I mean this guy was shooting deer in the head form 100 yards or so as they jumped the fence in mid jump. He was doing this all free hand with the sling wrapped around his fore arm. I was sold.

After I had the rifle in hand boy was I in for a surprise, since this gun couldn't do better than a three inch group at a 100 to save my ass. I immediately full bedded and free floated the barrel @0.0005 the thickness of a cigarette pack cellophane. Brass was head spaced off the shoulder using IMR7828 and Nosler 200 grain partitions. It improved the groups, but still it was horrible to clean. It would take like 60 patches, or better to clean, and still had a lot of blue streaks not just a light blue either, just couldn't get it really clean like I like it. Very disappointed at this juncture. I could feel the bore was rough in spots just ahead of the throat and about four inches from the crown, so I educated myself on how to hand lap a rifle bore and risked doing it as my skill level was of green horn status.

Being a bit OCD or stubborn as an Irish man I devoured everything I could On the subject and proceeded, and it paid off big time! I was about to sell the rifle to a co-worker. I'm glad I didn't. This rifle shoots like a laser beam, it holds MOA well past 700 yards. I took an elk at 900 yards and a number of deer at long range as well one in particular a 3/4 of a mile shot using a 200 gr Nosler accubond. Pretty incredible. Now its a very "Special" rifle indeed.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the newer FN/Belgium made rifles as they've made some of improvements since to the M70 CRF. I don't know what those boys at the Connecticut plant did to allow a rough bore to leave their plant, but and I am confident the FN people addressed the issues of rough bores. My next rifle will be another Winchester M70 CRF guaranteed....

 

[us920669]

I've owned quite a few and I agree with everything I have read. The big deal about the M70 was what it represented when it was introduced, and yeah, the fact that Jack O'Connor might have peed on it or something. There was a three-digit serial that was so much an investment that I'm embarrassed to say I don't even recall what it was chambered in. There was a '50s 243 that was so mint the checkering pulled fuzz off the inside of a soft case, an a 30-06 beater that never let me down. The one I most wish I had kept was a '65 pusher in 458 that somebody said was a transition gun, with some old features. The stock had just a bit of cast-off, the sort of thing you usually pay a bundle for. It made the gun jump away from you, and it worked. Now, you launch 500 grs at full-house levels and things will happen, but after all the excitement died down, you realized the rifle just wasn't hitting you all that hard. The best one of all probably was the 2000 Classic in 375, which I think also said Super Grade; slick, smooth, beautiful wood and very accurate. CNC machining is the only way to go. Oddly enough, the only rifles in my safe now are Mausers, a M1917 and a Savage 110 in 270, greatly prized for its light weight.

 

[kraigwy]

I have a lot of Model 70s, pre and post 64. Thought I really like my pre-64 in '06 with an El Paso 4X Weaver scope I will admit the Pre-64s are over rated. Most of my are post 64 - pre USRAC (I don't have a USRAC Model 70). In reality they are every bit as good as the pre 64s. My target rifles are based on the post 64s and our outstanding rifles.

I do have a FN, Model 70, Featherweight in 270 Win. I think its the pick of the litter.

If I could only have one rifle it would be a Model 70, I really don't care if its pre, or post 64,

 

[Slamfire]

I have a number of pre 64's and they are all a mixed bag. Featherweight barrels are not exactly tack drivers. The collector from whom I have purchased most of my pre 64's, he got a factory new pre 64, in the 50's, and had malfunctions.

The primary problems with the original pre 64's was manufacturing. Based on the reading I have done, Winchester wore out its tooling during WW2 and kept on using the same old machines instead of replacing them. Somewhere I have a picture of the Winchester custom shop, it has to be around the 80's, and leather belts are visible in the picture. These leather belts go from shafts in the ceiling down and around pulley's on machine tools on the ground. This is a very old, and unsafe, way to power machine tools. The machines must have dated prior to WW2. FN did a plant tour, and the trip report is in the book "FAL". What the trip report shows is an complex, confusing, process flow. Process flows that are illogical and confusing create a lot of bad parts.

I am of the opinion that the pre 64 M70 is a good action. There are features I like, particularly the stiff center section, easy bedding, easy bolt lift, fast firing pin fall. I like the three position safety and really like being able to remove the firing pin from the bolt without special tools. Bolt manipulation on a M70 is slick and smooth. The M70 over ride trigger was the best ever on a hunting rifle, though I prefer the two stage military trigger for safety and function. Over ride triggers don't have enough sear engagement to make me feel safe, but they can be tuned to incredible light releases. Anschutz triggers are over ride triggers and they are incredible target triggers.

The cone breech must have been copied from the M1903 and it is inferior to almost all other breeches in protecting the shooter from gas release. It really is awful. I recommend reading Ottesen's book on Bolt Actions for a comparison of actions, and comparisons of case head protrusion. The cone breech leaves a lot of case head hanging out of the chamber. I am of the opinion that case head protrusion is the better metric to compare when discussing action strength. Actions that provide more case head support are "stronger" than those that provide less, because the case is the weakest link in the system.

I think the M98 Mauser action is the best overall action ever built, but it was even more expensive to make than the M70. I am glad the M70 action is still around, even though the pre 64 is not. I have push feed, controlled round feed, and pre 64's. They all go bang and shoot reliably. They shoot accurately if they have a good barrel and are properly bedded.