Winchester-Lee Model 1895 6mm Navy Rifle

[varifleman]

Here for your viewing pleasure is Winchester-Lee Model 1895 6mm Navy Rifle serial number 18003 with bayonet and scabbard. It was part of the second US Navy contract (serial numbers 15001-20000) inspected by Lt John N. Jordan (J.N.J as stamped on breech in photo 7) which were delivered from 1 August through 6 December 1898.

 

[varifleman]

A few more photos:

 

[bumnote]

Nice!

 

[James K]

Do you have any ammo or clips? I think the clips are harder to find than the rifles. Some articles call the clip a "stripper clip", but it is not, nor does it become part of the action like the Mannlicher or M1 (Garand) clip.

With the Lee Navy, the five rounds and the clip are inserted into the action. A cam in the magazine "unlocks" the little hook in the clip, freeing the cartridges, and allowing the clip to drop out the bottom of the magazine leaving a loaded magazine. The advantage of the system is that cartridges can be loaded into the rifle without a clip or added to a partially empty magazine, which is not the case with a Mannlicher-type magazine.

Jim

 

[tahunua001]

sounds interesting, I would like to see one in action. i'm guessing out of 20,000 that they command a pretty penny and reloading for one would likely be an expensive and time consuming process...

... then again the old sailor in me really loves stuff that has significance to US naval history and tradition and a lee navy rifle in the collection would be amazing... oh the conundrums.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Those clips are true chargers.

They're also expensive as all hell. Last one I saw at a show was years ago and was well over $100.

Reproductions have been made.

Cases can be reformed from .220 Swift. When Winchester designed the Swift, they used the 6mm Lee Navy case as the starting point.

 

[varifleman]

Here are photos of a box of 20 Remington-UMC 6mm rouds, head stamps and individual rounds. Any ideas about production date for this ammo?

 

[varifleman]

Here is a photo of the S&S repro clip and wire for this rifle. As soon as the rifle gets thoroughly checked out I'll shoot a few clips and post range report.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Does the box say Du Pont on it anywhere?

Remington adopted the dog bone box around 1929-1930.

6mm Lee Navy (also called .236 US Navy) was manufactured through the 1930s and phased out for wartime production.

 

[James K]

I didn't know there were repro clips, but IIRC the clip is not a "stripper" or charger like the Mauser or Springfield. The clip does not sit in clip guides while the rounds are pushed down into magazine, then the clip discarded. It has been a long time since I loaded one of those (I don't own one, darn it!) but I seem to recall that the clip with its rounds is shoved into the rifle, then the wire tab is automatically turned to free the cartridges and the clip falls out the bottom, leaving the cartridges in the magazine.

Kind of a neat scheme, but I think the stripper (Mauser) type is better and less complicated.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

No, it's not part of the feed mechanism, like an M1's en block clip or a Carcano's Mannlicher packet clip, nor is it a stripper clip.

The best term to describe it is charger, as it charges the internal magazine with cartridges.

 

[James K]

I agree; a bit confusing because some folks call a stripper clip a charger; that one is a charger without being a stripper clip.

Jim

 

[varifleman]

No Dupont on box; here are photos of the other sides of box.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Remington began offering Kleanbore priming in, IIRC, 1926. They filed for mark protection on 19 October 1926.

The dogbone box was introduced in 1930. In May 1934 DuPont acquired a 60% controlling share of Remington, at which time the DuPont logo was added to the boxes.

So, your box was produced sometime between 1930 and early 1934.

It's a pity that it's not in better shape. That's a fairly uncommon box of cartridges, and in good shape can bring some serious money.

In that shape, probably in the $30 range, more if all of the cartridges are there.

 

[varifleman]

Thanks for the information Mike. Yes all 20 cartridges are present so it makes a nice display item.

 

[Mike Irwin]

All 20? Nice!

Pity that the box is so beat up.

 

[skizzums]

very cool rifle, congratulations. I heard they go for about 8 grand or more. there was a company called Norton Arms(no website) that was making a reproduction for 800$. they talked about it a bunch and said they were pressure testing ec, then nothing. sad, I would like to have one. Anyway, thanks for the pics, very very cool

 

[Mike Irwin]

I've been trying to find information on it, but I'm drawing a blank...

A few years ago a man was killed while firing his original Lee Navy. Apparently the bolt fractured and blew out, with a piece of it penetrating his skull.

Here's an article on the sad story...

http://www.msgunowners.com/t22036-a-firearm-accident-that-killed-a-friend


It's that sort of event that has led to me to stop firing C96 Mauser handguns.

 

[James K]

I don't think the rifle was at fault in that accident. It sounds a lot more like a double charge (a load of 11 grains of Unique could easily be doubled and go from a light load to disastrous over-pressure.

Also, I don't like using light loads of pistol or small rifle powder in larger rifles for two reasons. The possibility of a double charge is one, the other is that if there is any question about the old iron guns or the steel quality, the sharp, fast, blow of a load of Bullseye or Unique will destroy the gun where a moderate load of slower burning rifle powder will not. (One report of an M1903 SHT blowup involved a mere 9 grains of Bullseye and a round ball. The brittle old receiver shattered.)

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

I'm not saying that the rifle was at fault.

In the write up the guy says that the owner was using oversized bullets, converted cases with less capacity, and loading data for .243 Winchester, which was overpressure for this round.

The biggest problem with trying to fire a 6mm Lee Navy is the fact that there hasn't been loading data created and tested for a lot closer to 100 years than not.